72. Unlearning Society’s Toxic Views on Grief: with Ken Barringer
INTRO: Hi friends, this is Hannah, the host of the podcast Friends Missing Friends. I'm really excited about today's episode, Unlearning Society's Toxic Views on Grief with Ken Barringer. So Ken Barringer is a licensed mental health counselor who provides individual and group counseling support.
He's an adjunct faculty member at Lesley University in Cambridge, Massachusetts, where he designed and teaches a course in grief. He also has a monthly newsletter and hosts the podcast Grief in Brief. Also, if you want to check it out, I'm very honored to have been in episode 79 of his podcast, Grief in Brief.
Today, we talk all about the unhealthy or toxic views that society has on grief and how not only do we need to learn how to deal with grief properly, we actually have to also unlearn what we've incorrectly learned. And I'm really sorry to say society, surprise, surprise, does not handle grief or death well. So a lot of what we learned is pretty bad.
I know it's a huge bummer, but that's why we have professionals like Ken to come tell us what to do. So I'm not kidding. I learned at least 12 things in the hour that I talked to him. I hope you learn something too. And I also hope that you unlearn something. Thanks so much for listening
HANNAH:
Yeah. So you mentioned, like, okay, so having compassion, instead of saying the old scripts, or outdated scripts, do you have examples of, like, something to say that has compassion, and something to say that doesn't have compassion, would actually maybe even be hurtful?
KEN:
Yeah. Yeah. You know, one of the ones that really comes to mind for me is, you know, when somebody has been through, like, a really horrific, you know, I mean, all grief is traumatic, but, you know, if somebody's been through, like, a really horrific, you know, car accident or, you know, sudden and unexpected, the old scripts used to be things like, oh, my God, I can't imagine what you're going through.
And when we say, I can't imagine, what we're also saying is, let's not talk about it. Because if I can't imagine it, then there's really nothing to talk about. So I could, this is how people experience it. And, you know, in like 30 years of sort of doing this, this grief work, I've just heard this a lot from people. They feel like it shuts them down.
The I can't imagine-ers. And so the more compassionate response would be something like, can you tell me what this is like for you? You know, just shifting the script a little bit to what I don't know what this is like for you. Can you share that with me?
HANNAH:
Yeah, you're right. Like, if someone said, I can't imagine, that doesn't really give a good opening for me to respond back. And in fact, yeah, I don't know how I would respond back to that. Like, yeah, it sucks. And then the conversation kind of ends.
KEN:
Exactly. Yeah, it's an ender versus a starter. And the second way I set it around, like, can you share what this is like for you? That's a starter. That's an opener.
HANNAH:
Or is it also okay to say, like, do you want to share? Like, do you want to share what this is like for you? So that they could say no if they don't want to talk about it?
KEN:
Yeah, sure. Yeah, you could do that. Absolutely.
HANNAH:
Maybe I'm nitpicking, but I'm...
KEN:
No, no, no. No, but I think when people have an invitation, they often accept it.
HANNAH:
Yeah, because they never get to talk about it.
KEN:
Because they don't get the invitation, right? Very much. I think another piece of language, kind of the old and the new, are things like we always, and we are thinking like the culture who's not grieving at the moment, think like the griever needs some sort of silver lining.
And so people would often say things like, at least you, at least you, at least you got time, at least they weren't suffering, at least they were older. And the only thing worse than the I can't imagine are the at leasters. Because people aren't looking for a silver lining in the moment.
HANNAH:
Even if the silver linings are technically true, we don't want to freaking hear that. And that's something for us to maybe come decide later on our own.
KEN:
Yes, that’s for me to tell you, not for you to tell me.
HANNAH:
Yeah, and it’s wild because I just like a couple days ago, I was talking to a friend who’s friend…Okay, this is gonna be a lot of like three steps. A friend whose friend lost a friend.
And she was saying that she was talking to her grieving friend. I don't know, I don't think she said this to him, but she was talking about it to me. And she said, I just wish he could just be grateful they had such a good friendship.
Like they were friends since they were five. Like a lot of people don't get that. And I was like, I don't remember exactly what I said, but I basically said like hearing that after your friend traumatic like died, like is the last thing you want to hear.
KEN:
Absolutely. Yeah. Because I think what we what we don't always understand is like the intensity of the grief is proportional to the attachment and proportional to the relationship.
So no grief is ever the same. What I might want for mine isn't necessarily what you want for yours just because we both had a friend die because my attachment to my friend is different than your attachment to your. And we also think of grief as like time limited, you know?
So the idea of like, I wish they had gratitude. It's almost like there's not a clock running here that if I don’ thave gratitude in the next five minutes, I’m not ever going to have it. I mean, grief doesn't, it doesn't end, it just, it goes on. You know, it evolves over time.
HANNAH:
It does. And like, I had people say similar things to me when my friend had died two weeks ago. And I was like, I just, and of course, I didn't have the words for this at the time, but like, all I wanted was for someone to acknowledge how horrible this is.
KEN:
Yes.
HANNAH:
And it's amazing how few people did that.
KEN:
I know. I know. I'll tell you a story I love to tell, because it's probably my most epic failure as a Grief counselor. It was, but it was such a great learning. It was the first client I ever had, and I had like done all my Grief training. I'd been to like Grief school, you know, all this sort of stuff.
I like worked with my own experience of it. And, you know, I was really well educated about Grief. And I have my first client now, and it's a 12-year-old kid whose father died unexpectedly, like sort of left the house, never came back.
And so I'm working with him, and I'm feeling like, you know, I’m really doing the right work. I’m doing the work I’m supposed to be doing, and I’m helping the kid. And every time he would say something, I would respond.
He would say something, I would respond. He would say something, I would respond. And finally, he said to me, “you know, when I tell you things, I don’t want you to respond. I want you to just listen.”
HANNAH:
Wow.
KEN:
And it was, like, amazing. Like, just, just, like, sit with me. Just acknowledge me. Don't, like, have a response. And so, you know, a 12-year-old kid. And it was just such a fantastic learning. And here I am with, like, best of intentions and have all this knowledge, but it's just acknowledge it. Sit with it.
HANNAH:
Wow. What a wise 12-year-old to be able to articulate that. Oh, my gosh.
KEN:
Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, is a better teacher than any of those other books or anything I read.
HANNAH:
Wow. And what a lesson for all of us. Like whenever we sit with someone who's grieving or in pain or needs to share something, it's okay to also sit there and listen.
KEN:
Absolutely. And that's so difficult, you know, how to do that because I think our first instinct is to try and fix it for somebody. And if that doesn't work, which it doesn't, we then try to minimize it in some way with the at leasters, and I can't imagine-ers, and then if that doesn't work, which it doesn't, we then just avoid it. You know, we just don't really even talk about it. But to actually just sit with somebody, and that is maybe the most compassionate thing we can do is just sit with someone.
HANNAH:
As far as understanding the griever's experience better, which would help us to also support them better, can you describe the five planes of grief?
KEN:
We often think of grief as just being one thing, it's emotional. And emotion is one of the five planes, but the grief can also show up in four other areas, and they are physical, cognitive, behavioral, and spiritual, along with the emotional part. So the emotional part, you know, we think of as kind of a range of feelings, you know, a range of responses to things, some of which can be relief too, which is not generally sanctioned, but it can be. But, you know, we think of the field like I'm sad, I'm angry, I'm, you know, depressed, I’m longing, you know, the emotional part.
And for a lot of people, grief shows up there. For some people, it shows up physically, like the grief goes to the physical body, that I think in order for us to survive, we have a shutoff valve that says no more emotion. But it doesn’t mean it goes away, it goes and it lands in our body somewhere.
And people talk about, you know, they have stomach aches, they have a back ache, their neck hurts, they're low energy, you know, like they don't... And people say things, I wish I had a good story for why my back hurts, but I don't. You know, that to me is where the grief is landing.
It's landing in some part of your body. And so when we do things like be active, be physical, that's actually managing our grief, treating our grief. You know, the old sort of wisdom of like take a walk, you'll feel better is actually true.
You know, when we move our bodies, we move it through. You know, we work it through. I used to consult in a lot of different elementary schools, middle schools, high schools.
And I would always look at the nurses log to see who like the frequent flyers were, like who was coming into the nurses office a lot. And often it would be kids with these sort of somatic things that were really related to something else. It's just how we manage it.
HANNAH:
Wow.
KEN:
A third place it can show up is what I reference as cognitively. And this is, these are things like the executive functionings of organizing, planning and time management. Those all of a sudden just don’t sort of look right. And some people refer to it as being in a fog or having a grief brain or I'm like just always disorganized. I never have the things that I need. When I need them, I got up late, you know.
And that to me, the grief is showing up in some cognitive domain, because we're just not thinking like we normally do. The behavioral one, I often think of the behavioral manifestation as being either too much or not enough, that people are either sleeping like 15 hours a day or they never sleep. They've lost 20 pounds or they've gained 20 pounds.
They are always with people. They are never with people. Some sort of like real, almost extreme behavioral manifestation that is unusual for that person. That may be the behavioral piece of grief. And then I would say the spiritual one to me is, it's more like a sense of faith, not necessarily religious, you know, very separate from religion, but a sense of trust, a sense of belief, security, safety. Like it's on some higher plane that we're just questioning a lot of things now.
We don't have belief in a lot of things maybe that maybe that we used to believe in. And I think for some people, the grief shows up in all five of those plans. And for other people, I tmay show up in a couple. I have a number of people how I may ask them like, you know, what brought you in? And I know there was a loss, what brought you in? And they say things like, I feel like I’m not grieving because I’m not like, you know, at home crying all the time.
Because that’s our image of what grief is. And well, you probably are grieving. And as we start to talk, it starts to illuminate that it’s showing up in these other areas. It's just not in that emotional frame that we stereotypically think of when we think of somebody grieving. People often feel relieved too, like, oh, good, thank goodness. I thought I was doing it wrong. I thought I wasn't caring enough.
HANNAH:
Oh my gosh. That's so hugely important for us to know because it is like, I mean, I hear it all the time. Feel your emotions, feel your emotions. If you're not, you're stuffing it down. If you're not, you're stuffing it down. But like, I don't know, some people function differently. Like me, I'm a very emotional person, but not everybody is.
KEN:
Right, right. And, you know, we don't, we compare, you know, and we judge, and we can't, you know, because we don't know what that person's... I often feel like kind of how you are when loss greets you is how you go through it.
So if you're, you know, a very emotional person, and you're hit with loss, you're going to be more emotional. You know, if you're kind of like, you know, sort of depressed, anxious, and then grief hits you, that's your entry point for managing your loss. So you might be feeling more intensity of those things.
You know, if you’re this hopeful, optimistic person, like you’re going to have a different perspective when loss hits you, you know? Not all day every day, but this is just kind of your entry point. So we all handle it differently.
HANNAH:
This is a total hypothetical situation, but like, let’s say I’m a client and I come to you and I say, I feel like I’m not grieving. And then you explain that. And I’m like, thank God.
But then also, is it a goal to try to find other outlets? Or is it okay to just find one outlet? Like it’s okay to just grieve behaviorally? Or is that kind of a big strain on that?
KEN:
Well, it’s a great question. And I think what happens is, grief sort of evolves over time too. And I think our management skills evolve as well. So my feeling always is whatever you're doing to manage, as long as it's not harmful to you or to somebody else, that's what we're doing right now. And a year from now, two years from now, five years from now, your life is going to be different.
And so your management skills might be different too. So thinking of it like sort of over a continuum is more of kind of where I tend to land.
HANNAH:
Okay, yeah. And it's helpful, I think, to have a professional guide you through that, because I like, I just think back, I'm just like so horrified at like the lack of support that I had. And the thing is that I really was lacking executive functioning.
I don't think I even, it didn't even cross my mind to Google Grief Therapist. As insane as that sounds, because it sounds so simple. I had a therapist, I don't think she was educated in grief. So she wasn't like the best at that. But I was like, but I have a therapist, so I'm doing it right. Like, I didn't know. She didn’t tell me any of this.
KEN:
Yeah, yeah. Because there is a lot to the, I mentioned I write this monthly newsletter and the tagline is, my hope is that people will walk away with one thought of, oh, I never thought of it like that. You know, because I think when we have ways of thinking about things, we have language, it helps us feel like we can manage. And as I say, as long as our management is not harming to ourselves or to somebody else, then that’s what we’re really going for here.
HANNAH:
Yeah, and the whole harmful piece is interesting because there’s some gray area there. Like, my coping mechanism, especially in the beginning, was to carry around my iPad and have Netfli playing from sun up to sundown, which at first like, I freaking needed to get through the day. But after five months, it does start to get totally harmful to my mental health.
What a great, and there’s like the coping skills evolving too. You know, it’s like, this is what I need today to get through today.
KEN:
And then it's like, it kind of becomes addictive. I know it's different than, of course, like, drugs and addictive substances, but like, that I was addicted to that, the constant noise, the constant literal laughter, because like soundtracks or canned laughter, that I could not stand being in silence. And I think I remember when I forced myself to stop, it was physically painful. It was like a withdrawal situation, yeah.
KEN:
Yeah, yeah. And I think, again, to me, that might have been more the behavioral manifestation of the grief, like I gotta have the noise all the time, you know? And again, I think this is what I need to manage right now.
And okay, now I'm starting to recognize maybe there's another way to manage. So I'm gonna kind of come off that. And, you know, I think whenever we've had like these really traumatic losses, it's almost like I will, I, we will do anything to feel better.
And if it means carrying around my iPad and listening to canned laughter, I'll do that. Because if that helps me feel better, it helps me feel at least like, okay, yeah, I'll do it.
HANNAH:
And that, like compassion around that, I judged myself for doing that. But like, I do remember I had a therapist years later who was like, you did what you had to do to get through. And I was like…
KEN:
There’s the self-compassion that’s so hard to get, that’s so hard to get because we do, we judge ourselves, you know, and we compare ourselves to other people and what they’re doing. And you know, thinking about what your therapist said, like you kind of did what you had to do to get through. One of the things I encourage everybody I work with is to add two words to the end of every sentence. And the two words are “right now”.
HANNAH:
Oh yeah.
KEN:
I feel so depressed RIGHT NOW. This is the happiest I’ve been in three months RIGHT NOW, you know, because it’s fluid, things change. And right now, this is where I am. And I know the one thing I can count on is that that's going to shift. So just adding right now to the end of our sentences is a way of being a little self-compassionate.
HANNAH:
I love that because there's especially when you're in the depressed state, just how depression works is that there's like this curtain and you can't see past now. So it's almost like your brain hears, I'm depressed and it's like forever. Right.
KEN
Right. Life sentence.
HANNAH:
Yes.
KEN:
Yeah. And also I think, especially for when people are grieving is, there is a difference between, I am depressed and I feel depressed. And there are times when you will feel depressed, of course, like why wouldn't you? But it doesn't mean you are hardwired into that for the rest of your life.
HANNAH:
So I feel depressed right now, rather than I am depressed. Yeah.
KEN:
Yeah.
HANNAH:
That's a big difference.
KEN:
Yeah. And again, it comes back to language. You know, just like having language evolve allows us to feel better. You know, or at least allows us to feel like we can manage.
HANNAH:
The language piece is really important. And it's like, I think people underestimate how important it is. I just remember, like, I hated the term move on. And I thought I came up with move forward. But then I found out everyone else came up with it, too. Because, like, everyone is saying that on, like, Instagram and, you know, Grief people. And I'm like, well, I thought it was so original when I was like, let's say move forward instead.
KEN:
Oh, that's so good. Yeah. Because, you know, moving forward, well, the subtext of moving forward is embarking on the rest of my life without my person. And it's not like I've moved on from them and they're back here in the rear view mirror. Like, they're coming with me. But I'm figuring out how to do that as I move forward in my life. You know, you move on from things that don't matter.
HANNAH:
And it's that acknowledgement piece, too, saying move on feels like it's not acknowledging the person or the loved one that you lost.
KEN:
Right. Right.
HANNAH:
It's like it's amazing. A lot of it comes back to that acknowledgement piece.
KEN:
Doesn't it? You know, it really does. And you know, we, I don't think we ever get too old for wanting our experience acknowledged, whatever our experience is.
HANNAH:
Right.
KEN:
And again, I think we run into difficulty when we start to think of grief as a problem that needs a solution. Like when that's our mindset. Because what we're sacrificing is acknowledgement. And yes, some people might need some strategies around getting out of bed, around management of household tasks or whatever. But I think when we try to problem solve everything, we're bypassing acknowledgement. As we're saying, this is the way to move on.
HANNAH:
And it's like, okay, so this is what's interesting to me. So Grief is already not handled well in our society in general. Add on to that, that it's a disenfranchised Grief.
It's almost like there's even more layers of unacknowledgement from society. And it was recently, like this is insane to me, my dear friend Lauren passed away in 2015. It was last year, 2024, that I somehow, I don't even know how I learned it, but I was like, oh, friend loss is disenfranchised. It took me nine years to understand that.
KEN:
Because, you know, well, it's like we're not wired to understand it, you know, until it really applies to us. And, you know, so much of the disenfranchisement is it's either the loss doesn't get recognized, the relationship doesn't get recognized, or the griever doesn't get recognized, you know, fully. And I think what happens over time is all losses get disenfranchised. Like, what are you so upset about? That was 10 years ago. So you got like, you got like a double disenfranchisement going.
HANNAH:
Whoa, I didn't even think of it that way.
KEN:
And so, again, to me, this then brings us back to being self-compassionate, you know, that like, no, this is still an important thing. And I'm learning to live, you know, with this in another way now. Because people do that.
Like I mentioned, I used to work in schools. And, you know, I would talk with a teacher and they would be like really upset at a student because, you know, they're not turning in their homework, say, or they're not doing well on tests or things like that. And I would mention, well, you know, the parent died.
And they were like, well that was last year.
HANNAH:
Oh my God, a year is like nothing. Oh my gosh.
KEN:
I know. But it is like a mindset of like, that was in the past. So that, so that’s why I say it all becomes disenfranchised eventually.
HANNAH:
It’s wild to me that people think of it as the past because it’s actually the present and the future, because they’re still going.
KEN:
Correct.
HANNAH:
It's not like something that happened. It wasn't a one-time, one-off thing.
KEN:
Exactly. But that's how, you know, I think this is part of the unlearning. You know, because that was how we're taught that that was the past. But we know that grief is the present and the future too.
HANNAH:
Okay, so with disenfranchised grief and the external world is giving you these signals, I have felt like that can then become internalized, and then you disenfranchise your own grief. And I found I do that when, I look back and I'm like, oh my God, that's what I was doing when I was like, why am I this sad? We probably weren't as close as I thought. I don't even know if she loved me as much as I loved her, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
KEN:
You're absolutely right. I mean, we disenfranchise ourself, because if you hear something enough, you start to believe it. If everybody is saying this or implying this, well, maybe it's me. Maybe I'm getting it wrong, maybe they're right, and you do, you start to believe it, and end up disenfranchising yourself.
HANNAH:
Yes, it is a lot of unlearning. I'm still unlearning it, and for a while, like how I framed it was, so like I mentioned, I'm a very emotional person. I am so emotional that I, like for example, in seventh grade, I had to give a speech about the death penalty, and the idea of people being killed was so sad, I sobbed through the entire speech, and everyone was like, what is wrong with this girl?
So I'm already more emotional than the average person, to the point where people thought I was weird. So then, this huge loss happens, and so in my brain, when I'm disenfranchising myself, I'm like, here I am being too emotional again.
KEN:
Right, you're like validating an invalid narrative.
HANNAH:
Yeah.
KEN:
You know, and I think this is what keeps people in grief for a long time too, is their own internal conflict about what they feel and what they hear. And also, like with the emotional side of things, very subtly, I think we use that as like a weakness or a criticism or somebody not being, you know, strong enough. And I'm always like, well, that actually is a way of being strong, is being courageous enough to have the emotions, you know, and it’s hard to get stronger than that.
HANNAH:
I have a lot of unlearning to do. Because I even think back to like, I even would griev so deeply, like every friendship that faded away. Oh, I would grieve those so deeply. Like, you know, if my first heartbreaks were like my third grade best friend, no longer being my best friend in fourth grade and seeing her pass notes with another girl. And so, yeah, again, but what's wrong with that? What's wrong with feeling that deeply?
KEN:
Right. Sure, sure. And the thing is like, we think of those as like transactional experiences, you know, of childhood or lessons or young adult or, I mean, I saw somebody once who came in because of a job loss.
And they were just so to because this was their job and they got, you know, people leapfrog them in the company to get higher. And they ended up not, you know, losing their position and just how, because it's a piece of your identity.
You know, it's a piece of how people come to know you. And yes, they are transactional moments. And yes, they do happen to everybody. But it doesn't mean we then minimize it.
HANNAH:
Right.
KEN:
Because we don't know what it meant to him. We don't know what it meant to her. Might have had much more, because, you know, as we talked about earlier, the intensity, the grief is always proportional to the attachment.
HANNAH:
And something someone said to me that was something I hadn't heard before was how, you know how there's different types of attachment? There's secure, anxious and avoid it. Okay, so then also your attachment style, I guess, or type to that person or thing is then, would then also reflect in your grief.
So what I didn't realize was that I had an anxious attachment style. So of course the questions I would ask were, oh God, did she like me too? Like, you know, and I was like, oh my gosh, like again, learning the terms, learning grief literacy is so healing because it explains so many things.”
KEN:
Yeah, doesn't it? It's, you know, it's like, it's one of these things I say that it's simple, but it's not easy. Because it requires a lot of unlearning.
HANNAH:
And then remaining firm in what you learned, newly learned because the rest of the world is still saying the old things.
KEN:
That's right. That's right. Well, that's where I think, you know, shows like yours and just general awareness, like it's just really helpful, you know, to the communities at large because we can hone in on something and realize, oh, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense.
HANNAH:
And there's so many layers to like, I've even been like hard, like really intensely talking and researching grief. And I still learned like 12 things from you in the past hour. And then yesterday, I listened to another Grief podcast, and the guest was talking about a traumatic loss he had.
And I was like, oh my god, I was so focused on the fact that my loss was friend loss. I totally forgot about the fact that it was also a traumatic loss.
KEN:
I know. I know. And to me, like, wherever there's trauma, there's grief. Wherever there's grief, there's loss. Wherever there's loss, there's change. And that's like a hard staircase to kind of go down. And sometimes we just pick one of the things, you know?
What I think, too, what helps me understand a lot is, like, we get our cues about how to behave often by what we see in the movies or what we see on television, how it gets portrayed. And so, you know, sometimes I end up watching movies or shows that I don't really like or want to because I want to see how it's portrayed because that is how, where people get their cues from about how to behave.
HANNAH:
And that's so wild to me for so many reasons, because first of all, it's a script written by a random person who probably possibly didn't even have that experience. And then also one other thing that really shifted my understanding of all the things I've learned from TVs and movies is that so many of the scripts are written by men, which just not that that like not that scripts written by men are bad, but like that's the vast majority of the perspective.
KEN:
Yes. Yes. No, I think that's a point well made.
HANNAH:
Yeah, it's just something I have to remind myself because you do get like sucked into learning all these lessons and cues from them.
KEN:
Then for some, we take it to be truth. It just like we take the thoughts in our heads to be facts sometimes, but they're thoughts, they're not necessarily facts.
HANNAH:
I'm just thinking about if I watch way too much TV, and I'm like, oh no, oh no, I don't even want to know what that looks like. Oh dear.
KEN:
Well, it could be very purposeful in helping us disengage. It could be a great relief. But what am I watching and what’s the credibility?
HANNAH:
Right. It's good to be intentional.
KEN:
Yeah. One of the things we do in the course is I always have, I guess in assignment, I have students watch films, certain films, and where is the grief and what type of grief is being portrayed here, and how would you met as an emerging grief counselor?
HANNAH:
Are there any movies that you've seen that actually portray it really well?
KEN:
I think a film that I actually use in the course is called Manchester by the Sea.
HANNAH:
Oh, I haven't seen that yet. I should watch that.
KEN:
You know, it won all sorts of awards and it had like this reputate, oh my God, I can't watch that. It's too depressing. Oh my God, I can't watch that. It's too brutal. And I think the reason that people felt that way is because that's actually what it looks like.
HANNAH:
Whoa.
KEN:
That's actually kind of how people react and respond. And there's just so many layers in different times. I mean, there's just loss after loss. And you do have to be in a certain headspace to see it. But there's just so many different levels and layers. And I think it's portrayed really well. And that's why people had such hard time with it.
HANNAH:
Right. Okay. I want to watch that. When I'm emotionally safe enough to do so.
KEN:
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Be in a good space.
HANNAH:
So one movie, I don't know if you've heard of this or seen it. And I'd be curious of your thoughts. It's called All of Us Strangers.
KEN:
No.
HANNAH:
I would recommend it, because then I would be curious how you think it does. Because...I really appreciated it. I'm sure it's not perfect by any means in how it portrays grief, but it portrayed layers that I'd never seen before on screen.
KEN:
There's a lot of really good stuff out there too. But I think, because I often, like when somebody's coming in to see me or if it's a group, I often think like, what do they know of this? What is their family told them about it? What is their culture? If they're religious, what is the religion told them about it? Because you're sort of working with this conglomeration of multiple things. And I often add media in there too, like what's media telling them about it?
HANNAH:
Yeah. And there's the whole other layer of what the media tells us about friendships, which I have talked a lot about because I also just find it fascinating and infuriating. But especially growing up, the movies I watched as a kid were like the Disney movies where the woman wants a man and then ends with them getting married. And like there's just no friendships portrayed. It's all romance.
KEN:
Exactly.
HANNAH:
Yeah. So that's a whole other thing I'm unlearning. The unlearning never ends.
KEN:
No, no. Well, it's because the world keeps changing, the evolution and like sort of keeping up with it. And leaving some things behind. You know, and I guess maybe this is a sort of a would be a good close when I think of a, you know, when I think of grief and grief work, there's a spiritual leader, Ram Dass. And I often quote him because he said, We are put on this earth to walk each other home. And that's what I think the grief work is. I just feel like I'm walking people home.