Episode 57 - Big Friendship: Roadtrip Edition!

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HANNAH: Today's episode is called Big Friendship, Road Trip Edition. And this one's a little different, because I do not record it in my closet, I record it on a road trip in the car with my friend Michele, as I drive from Albuquerque, New Mexico through Texas, and then back up to Chicago. So in this episode, Michele and I do talk about the book Big Friendship, which is written by Aminatou Sow and Ann Friedman.

And in the book, they talk about the importance of friendship, their friendship journey, and they define big friendship as a strong, significant bond that transcends life phases, geographical locations, and emotional shifts. So we talk about what the book meant to us, where we were in life when we first read it, how it shifted our relationships and our experience and belief of what friendship is. And I also want to preface that we are on maybe about our 9 or 10 of this road trip, so, you know, it's that state where, like, you get a little bit slap happy.

I'm not gonna lie. We talk about everything ranging from the importance of friendship and what it means to us and where we want to be in our life, all the way to super-silliest things like whether or not tiny horses exist. So, I left it all in because I feel like it encapsulates the spirit of big friendship, which is just having so much fun talking to each other, even though it's hour nine or ten, and talking about everything under the sun, from life to tiny horses. So, I hope you enjoy.

I remember you saying that you listened to Big Friendship as an audiobook or something with Leah.

MICHELE: Yeah, Leia and I, it was like, gosh, maybe like six months into COVID or something, maybe less. And I was living by myself, and she was living with a roommate, and we would like go on weekly walks, but we're generally very lonely during this time, as everyone was. And this was like the first year that we weren't living together.

And we didn't have a falling out, but there was definitely like a lot of tension at the end of us living together. And so I think both of us were like independently wondering whether the friendship was just kind of kind of fizzle. Again, not because like anything bad happened, but like there was just parts of being roommates where like weren't super compatible or and also just like, you know, early 20s, like clusterfuck, like you were just going through like second puberty, you know?

And so we kind of like didn't lose touch, but we weren't like talking a lot after we moved out and then COVID hit. And then we ended up going on this road trip to, oh my gosh, it was like called like Whitesburg, Kentucky, or something terrible like that.

HANNAH: Wait, why'd you go to Kentucky?

MICHELE: Because we like wanted to go to some kind of like national park type outing. And we wanted to go to, and Kentucky's like very beautiful, and then like Whitesburg, I think that's what it's called, was like the closest reasonable distance to go. Anyway, so we ended up going there, and I think it was like a seven to nine hour drive, I can't remember what it was, and she had heard of this book, Big Friendship. And I can't remember how long the book was, but we listened to the whole thing, I think in one sitting.

HANNAH: Whoa!

MICHELE: Or most of it. And then we, I might be butchering this, I can't remember if that's actually how it went, but we like listened, we definitely listened to the whole thing in the car, whether that was in one sitting or across the two rides, and then we ended up talking and reflecting about it for like another five hours. Like I remember all we did in the car was listen to the book and then like talk about the book in the context of society in general and like the state of our friendship.

And we kind of acknowledge, it was a good book to just kind of acknowledge like, like it felt like we were talking about it as if it were a relationship, because it is, because friendships are like relationships. And so it was just a good way to like meditate on where we were at individually, what we kind of think happened near the end of us, like living together, and then really reflecting on like the importance of our friendship and how we wanted to keep nurturing it. And so, and then the trip just ended up being so bizarre because we were in COVID and we were in this weird little town and we stayed in this Airbnb without no windows.

HANNAH: There were no windows. What?

MICHELE: It was so weird. Cause we saw it, and we like looked at the Airbnb listing later and we're like, wow, they really take pictures in a very clever way cause you would think that there's windows. And it was just terrible because like the town we were staying in wasn't all that interesting.”

And I was like, riddled with anxiety, just because I was like COVID and like, you know, safety. And we were like in Trump era and like probably in like Trump town, you know, like it was, I was just like nervous about everything. And then like, you know, you kind of want to unwind at the end of the day and you don't want to do that in a windowless Airbnb. It was terrible. But it was some trauma bonding for us.

So it's like, I look, in some ways, I look like very fondly on that trip because it was like the, like starting our friendship over sort of. And we had so much time to reflect and heal and whatever. And also like, that was weird. That was really weird. And she was like, I was doing so many weird, anxious things at the time. Like I can tell that was like the height of me probably needing to be medicated.

Cause I've never like had such like almost OCD tendencies or like just catastrophizing to a degree that I had never before. And so I like wouldn't drink like the sink water. And so she dealt with me like buying gallons and gallons of water at like the gas station. And then like we went on a hike and I could, I was like, I can't go much further. Cause like, what if there's bears and stuff? And she just, I mean, maybe that was a reasonable thing to be afraid of.

And then I was like, what if we look like liberals and we're in Trump town? Cause I think my hair was purple at the time. Cause I was like, then they're gonna know. And I voted for Hillary. Cause my hair is purple. And then I remember, I had brought some leftover salmon that I had cooked. And I didn't eat it for five hours or something.

And so it was sitting in the car. And then for 24 hours, I thought I was gonna get food poisoning. And I was thinking, I was like, man, Leah was so patient with me. And she was later like, yeah, you were going through a phase. And she just let me do all these weird things or like reassured me like it's all, the water was probably fine. Like I did a lot of research on the water.

There was something going on with me. Anyway, so yeah, we, I don't, honestly, I don't remember a lot about the specifics of the book, but I was, but it was just, it was just kind of like describing the trials and tribulations of friendships and like the natural course and evolution of it and the ways that they function a lot like romantic relationships and the ways that they don't. Yeah. And so like the, I forget the two women's name, but they're like very close for periods of their life. And then they moved a lot for work. And then one woman ends up like in a serious relationship and the other woman is like very like dedicated to her job.

And so they definitely go through a period of like instability and like breaking up, for lack of a better word, that I think like helped Leia and I talk about it. But you are like using, you are using like a framework for a different type of relationship to talk about your friendship. You know, like there is no, there are no rules for friends because they're kind of almost thought of like, it's like a filler for other parts of your life, you know, like you have, you have your family and that like abides by a certain set of rules and you have romantic relationships.

And then you don't think about how the fact, how like friendships, in some cases, depending on your life circumstances, are the most long lasting relationships in your life. And they survive so much turbulence, like when I think of like the closest friends that I have, like they've, you know, they've stood by my side through how many relationships and like, you know, I hope my family gets to be by my side throughout my whole life. But like, obviously, your parents are much older and like, if you have, or if you don't have siblings, you know, like your friends are the ones that are going to be there through all of it.

And so you like, you nurture it in a really different way. And it's almost like incredible that friendships last as long as they do because you can go through periods where you're not interacting. Like, I have friends that I only see once or twice a year, but every time we like reconnect, it's like the fireworks are still there.

HANNAH: Yeah, I remember in the book, they did couples therapy together. And they felt like, they were like, this is really unusual, but we just really need to fix this. And I just thought that was so cool. Like, I've never even considered doing something like that. That's like the first time I've heard of friends doing couples therapy. Like, yeah, why not? You know? All a couple means that you're two people. [laughs]

MICHELE: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Which I learned for the first time, because somebody at some party... Wait, were you at that party?

HANNAH: That was me, I brought that up.

MICHELE: Oh, you brought that up!

HANNAH: Okay, what does a couple mean? If you mean what does several mean?

MICHELE: And I'm like, two to four is a couple. They're like, a couple is literally two. But whatever. Yeah, I know. Why wouldn't you go to couples therapy?

HANNAH: The only other time I've heard of that was in the book BFF by Christie Tate. She went to couples therapy with one of her friends. Over Zoom. And it helped repair their friendship. And I think that was the first time I've heard of it. And then I heard of it in this Big Friendship book.

MICHELE: Yeah. Do you have any friends that you would have wanted to do couples therapy with?

HANNAH: I don't know. I don't know. I feel like friendships have just kind of faded. Some friendships, not all my friendships, but then maybe therapy could have kept them from fading. I don't know if it would have made sense at the time. I don't know. What about you?

MICHELE: Yeah, I feel like I could have benefited, Leigh-Anne and I probably could have benefited from couples therapy, just to be better roommates and to process what was going on with us individually. Because a lot of the issues I think that we experienced near the end had little to do with our dynamic, but more with what we were individually going through, or at least what I was individually going through. I feel like honestly, I was more of the problem.

I was just like a brat for no reason. Like, for example, I don't really like overhead lights very much. I like lamps and very purposeful lighting. And our apartment was so dark, and I would turn on the minimum amount of lights and be passive aggressive whenever Leia would turn on a light. As soon as she exited, I would turn off the lights. But to be fair, Leia also needs more light than the average person. So I think we were on two extreme...

HANNAH: Why does she need more light?

MICHELE: She just likes everything to be lit up. And I'm just like, I want shadows and darkness. It's like the opposite. And so I would get into this phase where we would both get up really early. She would work out, and I would go write and stuff. And I would be making coffee, and I wouldn't turn on any lights in the kitchen just to be in protest. And so I can't really see anything. And then Leah would emerge from the bedroom. And she's like, Can I turn on the light? And I'm like, God, fine!

It was like, honestly, it was a me problem. She was behaving very normally. But like, you know, it's interesting, because I don't know, in some ways I think couple, like romantic couples and platonic couples have a lot in common, and there is like a lot of parallel stuff, like just like, how do you support each other, and so do you be kind to each other, how do you create boundaries, blah, blah.

But there is like an element of, like, a romantic couple is like trying to unify and like move forward in life together. And for friends, you are like, part of your life is moving forward together, but then like you're also like establishing really separate identities in a way that you don't see often in a romantic couple, you know? Where it's like, like I really want my friendship with all my close friends to continue to evolve, but like I also want to support them in like doing the things that I will probably never do.

Like I have a really close climbing friend, and like I don't have ambitions to like be a really competitive climber, but like I want to help her through that. Or like friends who are in new relationships, like I want to like support them through something that is inevitably going to like separate us more. So I think like almost that needs to be thought through, because I think like in your early 20s, and a lot of my friendships in my early 20s, it was like kind of weird because like you really rely on your friends, but you're also like actively trying to like establish something outside of the friendship.

And so I think like it's easy to be jealous if somebody's like progressing in a way that you want to. That's like, I think that's what's like so unique to it, you know?

HANNAH: Yeah. That's so interesting.

MICHELE: And like I think that what like many close friends could benefit from therapy to process that. Like how do you support the other in an endeavor that separates you from the friend, but also makes the friendship all the more important?

HANNAH: Yeah, it is more complicated because it's more like you're living parallel lives rather than intertwined lives. Like I'm imagining like if a romantic couple, at least stereotypically how they work, is like two pieces of rope intertwined. And then friendships is like two pieces of rope side by side.

MICHELE: Yeah, exactly.

HANNAH: So yeah, how does that function differently and how do you... Yeah, there's no like rules for that.

MICHELE: Yeah, exactly. And then like because of those stereotypes, it feels like there's... Like that's why couples therapy for friends feels weird. Or like why wouldn't you buy property with a friend? You know, or why wouldn't you raise a child with a friend? Like I feel like there are certain people and couples where like that probably makes a ton of sense, but because you don't see it happen a lot.

HANNAH: Yeah, it's always like this news story, like wow, two best friends raise a child together. It's like in the newspaper.

MICHELE: What a revolution!

HANNAH: Yeah, but I remember thinking about that. I was like, wait a minute. I don't have enough money to buy a home, but maybe I could go in on a home with a friend.

MICHELE: Yeah, why not?

HANNAH: But then I don't know the legality of that or how you split it. That'd be a whole thing I have to figure out.

MICHELE: Right. And like, I guess that's why it's complicated. Like, would you marry somebody? Like, the law is involved and like...

HANNAH: Right? The law's not on our side.

MICHELE: Yeah. But like, maybe that's the benefit of friendships is that the law isn't involved. There's a little bit more flexibility and like you can be more inventive in the way that you have friends and the things that you do with them.

HANNAH: That's true. Okay, we're going to buy a tiny house together.

MICHELE: Okay, I'm all in.

HANNAH: Just because it's the only type of house I can afford half of, maybe, if I get the absolute cheapest tiny house that exists.

MICHELE: Like, sorry, Liam, I'm not moving to Minneapolis, I'm buying a tiny home with Hannah in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

HANNAH: Yeah, that's another thing. I'm like, where would I put the house besides, like, in the backyard?

MICHELE: First get a house with a backyard.

HANNAH: So I first have to buy a real house, and then I can buy a tiny house.

MICHELE: This makes perfect financial sense.

HANNAH: Except apparently, luxury tiny homes are like $300,000.

MICHELE: I know, and they're not that small.

HANNAH: I know!

MICHELE: Oh my gosh.

HANNAH: I actually, I would love to have a tiny home, but not as my only home. Like a place I could go to sometimes. To like, write or whatever. Because it's so cozy.

MICHELE: It's so cozy. But I also get claustrophobic immediately. Like, I felt a little claustrophobic in our tiny home that we stayed in.

HANNAH: Yeah, I know what you mean. If I'm in there for too long.

MICHELE: Yeah, I'm like, is there any oxygen left in there?

HANNAH: I should think about that. Where was the oxygen coming from?

MICHELE: I'm gonna be very methodical about my breathing.

HANNAH: But yeah, we're like, you know, friends could own a car together. Like, car share. Why do we all have to buy things individually? I don't know why I'm thinking about just buying things, but...

MICHELE: No, I agree. Yeah, I don't know why it feels like why it feels more complicated. Or I guess part of it is just like, there's no promised longevity to a friendship, I guess. So it's like, what if you buy a car with a friend, and then one of them gets a cool job opportunity and moves?

HANNAH: Yeah, then who gets the car?

MICHELE: Yeah, who gets the car? Or is the other friend going to move with that friend? Which again, when I think about moving to a new place, I'm like, well, can I take all my friends with me?

HANNAH: I know. When I think about you moving, I get really sad. But I also am excited for you. There's definitely both, but I'm just like...

MICHELE: But I dream of this world that I bring you with me. And then there's also, I don't actually feel this way, but I feel like when people move, they're just like, okay, well, I'll make new friends. And it is exciting to think about new friends. But that makes it seem like it's so easy to replace what you currently have.

HANNAH: Yeah. That's really hard.

MICHELE: And I think friendships are so rich than other relationships, because a lot of the time, you build on them over long periods of time. Whereas in dating, especially if you're online dating, there's kind of this pressure to make a really snap decision about somebody, and then you will end up spending a lot of time with them, but it's more compressed. But when I think about my longest friendship with Olivia, she and I were just acquaintances for four years, basically. So there was just this period, it's really, really a slow burn.

And so then when I think about, okay, if I move to a new place and I have to make new friends, like, that is the process that I have to start over. Or you have to, like, pursue friends like dating, which I basically did with you. “You want to go to Ireland with me?”

HANNAH: That's not how you date. [laughs]

MICHELE: Want to get married? [laughs]

HANNAH: Yeah, that's one thing that I was really naive about when I moved to Chicago. I was like, oh, make new friends. And it just took so long to feel like I had any roots at all. And even still, I feel like my roots aren't that deep. I've been there, like, seven years, but like two of those years were COVID, so those almost don't count.

So it's kind of like five years. And I made a lot of friends, but like, I don't, not all of them, like, lasted. You know? Just because of circumstances, or like, I was in a class with them, and then the class ended. But I was just like, oh, God, I am all alone. Even though I wasn't completely alone, but it felt like that sometimes.

MICHELE: Well, and it just takes, like, I feel like any type of relationship, it takes so long to, like, know a person.

HANNAH: I know.

MICHELE: I just feel like it's like a multi-year process.

HANNAH: No, it is. Because it was only a year after I knew you, that you told me your Amber Heard story.

MICHELE: Yes. I did meet Amber Heard.

HANNAH: Like, this would have been the first story I'd tell literally anybody. Maybe not.

MICHELE: Yeah, I feel like the first thing we talked about was our most embarrassing stories. Really, really embarrassing stories. Just to, like, I feel like it's so similar to, like, when you date somebody and, like, when you first go on your first date, you put on a lot of makeup, and then, like, you're like, they have to see me without makeup so they know what I look like at my worst. And I feel like that was the same thing I was doing with you. I was like, okay, she has to know just how terrible I am. So she can back out if she wants to.

HANNAH: I actually felt so seen.

MICHELE: I know!

HANNAH: I was like, oh my god, I have had equally horrible experiences. Like, here's the time I've been catfished. This is the time I thought I met Elijah Wood. Or I thought I was going to meet Elijah Wood. It's so embarrassing. I have a story to tell Elijah Wood, though, whenever I meet him.

MICHELE: Because that's gonna happen…Yeah, it's weird because I feel like... when I was younger, like, more like early 20s, and... God, somebody needs to document the early 20s experience. Because, like, I feel like there's so much material on, like, going through puberty and being a teenager. But I'm, like, the most stressful period of my life was, like, 22 to 27. Early 20s, I remember I felt deeply in love with this man who ghosted me. And... It's a necessary experience for somebody in their 20s. Not really, but I feel like it happens to a lot of people, and it happened to me.

And we were both living in Chicago, and I remember he really wanted to move to, like, Oregon, somewhere in Oregon. I can't remember why. I think he had a friend that lived there, or he wanted to be outdoorsy. I'm not really sure. But... And as I was, like, just falling head over heels for him, I remember really romanticizing this idea of, like, moving to the middle of nowhere with this strange man. And I'm like, wow, it sounds so romantic.

It's not creepy at all. And, like, I had, like, multiple iterations of this, too. Like, it wasn't, like, a one instance, like, where I was, like, really like, yeah, that sounds great. I'm gonna leave everything I love behind and just go live with this person that I don't really know. And now I'm, like, obviously not in that situation, but I'm in a situation where I'm, like, considering moving for the person that I'm dating. And I'm, like, so excited about it. It's a very healthy situation and not creepy.

And it's, like, normal. But I am now, like, for the first time in this scenario, actually grappling with the reality of, like, what would it be like to leave friends? And then, like, that's the first time you're like, oh, this is the role that they play. It is not ancillary. It is, like, foundational. And I feel like that is...Whether it's, like, innately biological or something that is learned through culture, it, like, doesn't feel necessary at some points in your life, when you, like, think of it within the context of romantic relationships, but then once it, like... I don't know, at this age, I'm like, oh, like, I would feel the loss of friends. Like, your romantic partner is a central part of your life, but that doesn't mean they're the entire life.

And so I feel like that's, like, the first time that, like, you, like, you really take your friends for granted.

HANNAH: Yeah, because we're getting to the age early, you know, late 20s, early 30s, where people really start moving and settling down. Whether it's, like, for a job, for marriage, relationship, whatever. When, like, our 20s were just, like, la-di-da-di-da-di-da

Oh, it wasn't college fun and stressful. What's a job? Oh, this is weird! How do I do my taxes? What are taxes? I'm not doing a good job of explaining.

MICHELE: I hope I don't get sent to prison.

HANNAH: Yeah, I hope I don't go to prison. I hope I... I hope I don't get ghosted. Whoops, I just got ghosted 25 times. Whoops, I accidentally ghosted someone else. Sorry. Just literally just trying to figure out how to be a human. Yeah, you're right. So we are entering that stage where it's like, oh crap, like I might actually have to choose...make choices.

MICHELE: But like, I have to believe that there's a model for both, where you can have both, you know? Like when I think about moving to Minneapolis, like, Liam literally moved to Minneapolis to be close to his best friend. And then when I'm like, this is a hard decision for me, it is like because of friends and family. So then we like think about a world in which we could split at time, you know? So it's like I think it could work. We all just need to live in a commune.

HANNAH: That's the... We'll build a farm, a tiny farm. We'll have tiny horses and tiny sheep. You know those tiny animals like teacup pigs?

MICHELE: Yeah.

HANNAH: We'll literally have teacup everything.

MICHELE: Oh my gosh.

HANNAH: So that they can fit in our tiny farm.

MICHELE: Sounds like a really good idea.

HANNAH: Actually, that sounds absolutely amazing.

MICHELE: And then we would feel so big. And Liam would literally be like a monster.

HANNAH: But do you know how much money we'd make from Airbnb? So many people would want to come to the tiny farm.

MICHELE: Oh my god.

HANNAH: Okay, I think I've discovered something huge. How has this not been done?

MICHELE: Okay, but can you tell me? So outside of microscopic animals, what else does this look like? What does our house look like?

HANNAH: It's a tiny house, and then a tiny farm. Tiny horses. Wait, is there such a thing as a tiny horse?

MICHELE: Yeah, is it a pony? Or a teacup horse?

HANNAH: I thought there was such a thing as little horses.

MICHELE: Oh my gosh, my underboob is sweating.

HANNAH: And then we can get toddlers to ride them.

MICHELE: But the problem is, the idea of a commune is to fit a lot of people there.

HANNAH: We'll have a bunch of tiny houses.

MICHELE: We could just have one big house.

HANNAH: Okay, we'll have a big house, and then a tiny barn. With tiny animals.

MICHELE: Don't trip over the animals!

HANNAH: And then I could have really big dogs. And the dogs are bigger than the horses. Or the same size as the horses. I don't know how big teacup horses are. And they like play and hang out.

MICHELE: Do they have to fit in a teacup?

HANNAH: I think that's just what they're called. I don't think they necessarily have to fit into a teacup.

MICHELE: Okay, because I'm like, that's what I was going to say when you said tiny horse.

HANNAH: No, not THAT small!!! [laughs] I mean, the baby teacup pigs can fit into a teacup.

MICHELE: Oh my gosh.

HANNAH: I think tiny horses, like a toddler could ride them. That's what I'm envisioning.

MICHELE: I think that's just a baby pony.

HANNAH: I don't know. Maybe it's just a baby horse. I literally don't know anything about horses. Maybe I'm thinking about a fantasy movie I saw once or something. Anyway. But yes, we should just live in a commune. That's where all my, it all boils down to that.

MICHELE: I feel like we've revisited the commune idea a few times. But I'm really bad at sharing, so.

HANNAH: Well, it doesn't have to be like commuNISM. [laughs] It's just you live in a house. We don't have to share everything. We can still have our own stuff.

MICHELE: I feel better about this.

HANNAH: Why do people always jump from commune to communism?

MICHELE: I know, it's a range.

HANNAH: It is a range. It could just be a big house, people. And we don't have to live there all the time. It could just be a place we go.

MICHELE: I mean, my cousins, okay, my one cousin said that she was like, our grandma owned a two-flat in Chicago, and she has this like long living dream of just buying her house and like making it the cousin house, and then we all live in our grandma's old house.

HANNAH: Yeah, it'd be pretty cute. Lauren and I would actually like dream about all being in a big house. We can talk about that. And then like all of our friends played brass instruments, we'd be like, yeah, and then we could like be in a brass quintet and all like live in one big house. It's kind of like dreams that kids have, you know?

MICHELE: But then, I mean, here we are, we're doing it now, too. But like, this is not just kids. But like, whenever, I don't know, like whenever you go to like a big Airbnb house with a bunch of friends.

HANNAH: It's so fun.

MICHELE: It's so fun.

HANNAH: It's like a big sleepover.

MICHELE: Yeah, I'm like, okay, I understand why Greek life is popular. Like, just in a big house with all your friends.

HANNAH: That's why people do Greek life. We just need to buy a big house, but still have our own separate houses when we want, like, cause I also understand the desire for independence. Which I know, like, sometimes- Yeah, being in a big house can feel kind of like, it holds you back a little bit. So that's why I'm like, let's have both, you know? And then like, it'd be like vacation, you know, for a weekend or like a month, then a time or something to go to this big house, and then go back to whenever. It's like, they did that big friendship. They would, they called it like desert ladies or something. And they would have this big, and it kept getting bigger and bigger. And they would all go to the desert in this big house. It'd be like that, but we own the house and the animals.

MICHELE: Yeah, and like think about how easy, like, well, I'm really oversimplifying this. Like, if people have animals and like kids and stuff, like, how fun would that be for like kids and animals, you know, like to be raised by so many different types of adults and like kids and animals that needs a lot of attention, and like people could go on vacation and they would have people to take care of these creatures. Not the kids. Kids aren't creatures, but you know what I'm trying to say.

HANNAH: Yeah, it's like a big family. It's like the feeling I would get, especially for the holidays with my family. We would all go to our, we had a house in the mountains that they just recently sold to their parents. But, and that was so fun, because we would go there for Christmas, and we'd all sleep in the big house. And it was kind of like one big sleepover. Oh, so fun.

MICHELE: Yeah, there could be something so isolating, I think, about the family unit. Even if you have the family, sometimes it's just two parents and like two kids or something. That's great, but there's something like extra special about having like a lot of people around you, you know?

HANNAH: No, I agree. Yeah, that's... Well, after we save a lot of money.

MICHELE: I plan to save money.

HANNAH: Except I know we're using that money for other things, like survival.

MICHELE: Right.

HANNAH: But you know, when our books go into the New York Times best-selling list.

MICHELE: Right, and when this podcast makes you millions of dollars.

HANNAH: Yep. And when I'm friends with Glennon Doyle and Mark Ruffalo, then we can buy a commune and a tiny farm. I'm really set on this tiny farm now.

MICHELE: You should Google it. I wonder if it's been done already. And if it has, I'm sure that it has. If it has, we are turning the car around and going to the tiny farm. It's like a petting zoo except you're giants. You always want it to feel big. I don't know what it's like to feel tall.

Yeah, I feel like more than ever, that's like something I'm craving, especially after COVID. I was just like alone for like two years. And I used to like that. Now I'm like, I want to be surrounded by people all the time.Even if it's not like active engagement, you know?

HANNAH: Yeah, like being surrounded by people, but still having your own bedroom. So you can escape.

MICHELE: Right, right, right. Exactly. Because when we were just talking about like people, you sleep more peacefully when you know other people are in the house. Because you like subconsciously feel safer.

HANNAH: I know Jamie was so sweet. She's like, I haven't slept that well in months. You know, I've never had the desire to live alone. Like I know a lot of people and friends who just like really don't want to have roommates. And I'm like, why? Wouldn't you be lonely? Like, I don't understand. I would hate it. I'd be so alone.

MICHELE: Yeah, I really wanted to live alone, and there's a lot of parts that I really like. You can just like fart all the time, you know.

HANNAH: [laughs] I do that anyway, so.

MICHELE: It's true. And they're like, it is like, you have like complete autonomy over the space, and like, you know, like there's a lot of benefits, but yeah, I feel like I spiral much more easily when I'm by myself, like because you're just like in an echo chamber, and like I feel like when you're around somebody that you're close to, even if you aren't directly acknowledging the thing that's like making you anxious, like the presence of them like brings levity, and then like a lot of the time the things that bring me anxiety, I'll like say out loud and then we'll be like, oh, that's funny. There's no reason to be nervous about that. So yeah, I think I just like I associate it with like the height of my paranoia.

And so then I'll like when I was visiting Liam and his roommate, has also recently started dating somebody, and so sometimes there just be two couples in the house, and it was really packed in there, but it was like kind of fun. Yeah, I felt like a big, I don't know if everybody felt that way, but I was like, I'm having a blast guys yeah.

HANNAH: And that's one thing that I miss so much, like after visiting home, I'll go back to Chicago, and I just miss like sitting around and doing nothing together.

MICHELE: Yeah, exactly.

HANNAH: Because like I have a lot of trouble sitting around doing nothing on my own. I get so restless. And I'm like, I should be doing something. I could be productive. Like even sitting and reading, I have trouble doing. That's why I do it in bed before I go to sleep. Because like, I just can't really sit around and read. It's hard to explain. But yeah, like the whole routine with my family, where like before we eat dinner, we like have a glass of wine and like play cards or talk, and then eat dinner, and then maybe watch something on TV or work on the puzzle. Like it's just very domestic, very like calm. And a lot of times you're not doing anything. But you don't feel, I didn't, I wouldn't feel restless.

MICHELE: Yeah, I feel like, I mean, I think humans are naturally social beings. Like it's a evolutionary protective mechanism, I think, to like seek out groups. So it's no surprise that it's like inherently really comforting, even when you're not in danger, you know?

HANNAH: It's just so, it's just weird how like now the groups, we have to create our own group. As far as like the whole nuclear family Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. But then like, yeah, it's unusual to be like a grown adult, like 30s, 40s, 50s and above, that live with a group of friends. I feel like that's kind of unusual.

MICHELE: Well, I was, I mean, I didn't tell my brother this, but I was like, I'm just like still single, and I'm in my 40s, I'm moving in with you and Lauren.

HANNAH: Did you, you didn't tell them that?

MICHELE: No, I told Loren that. She was on board.

HANNAH: Oh, that's so sweet.

MICHELE: And I'm like, I will be inserting myself.

HANNAH: There's a lot of cultures where the extended family just lives together forever. Unless, maybe unless they get married. But other than that, kids, parents, and grandparents all live together. Which also economically makes so much sense.

MICHELE: Oh my god, I know. When you think about what we're paying individually to be by ourselves, it's like, oh, Jesus.

HANNAH: It's so silly.

MICHELE: So silly. And then we're miserable while we're at it.

HANNAH: Like, what are we doing?

MICHELE: Gosh, there's an easy way around this.

HANNAH: But I don't know, I'm starting to feel a little bit restless again.

MICHELE: Yeah, why?

HANNAH: I don't know, I just feel that way after being somewhere for a few years. Like it was assuaged, assuaged by moving to the new apartment. Now I've been there for like five years. And right now I'm like, but I don't want to just move for the sake of moving, you know? Yeah. And also it's a great apartment and I would lose such a great set up, like an amazing location literally could not find a cheaper price for the area. So that also makes me feel a little bit stuck because I'm like, if I move, I need to have a really good reason.

MICHELE: Yeah. Would you just like want to move someplace else in Chicago?

HANNAH: There's no other place in Chicago I'd want to be. Like, I live in the best neighborhood, I think, for myself, and in the best spot, in the best neighborhood. I could not be in a more prime spot. So I'm like, okay, well, this is the peak of where I could live in Chicago, at least for myself.

MICHELE: Oh, I have said that too. I think it's interesting, though, when we feel restless, the first thing we want to change is just where we move, where I feel like there must be other smaller changes to like, feel like something has changed, even like rearranging your bedroom.

Well, that's why it was last winter. I moved every piece of furniture in my house. And I felt really good for weeks.

HANNAH: I even thought of just like buying all new bedroom furniture. I'm like, oh, I’m too poor.

MICHELE: It's so exhausting and stressful to get a new furniture because it's not like a one and done deal like it like takes a long time, but it like does it has like a really good mental effect. Just to kind of mix it up. What does restlessness feel like for you?

HANNAH: It's a little bit like FOMO, but not of like a specific thing. Not like, oh my gosh, they're all at a party and I wish I was at the party. It's just like there is something out there. But I don't know what it is. The thing I'm missing out on, I don't know what. And I also just, yeah, it feels like, again, it's a prison of my own making because I could literally go anywhere in Chicago.

Which I am going to actually make an effort to do that more instead of being like, well, I guess I'll just walk up Clark Street again. That is of my own doing. I guess I'll just go on the same rectangular walk.

MICHELE: Yeah, my life is like the third biggest city in the United States.

HANNAH: It's so dumb. It's so dumb.

MICHELE: Spend all our time in like two city blocks.

HANNAH: Literally a five block radius. Like I...

MICHELE: I don't need anything. Sometimes I don't feel like I live in a big city because of that.

HANNAH: I know. I'm like, oh, it's a small town. It's so weird. But I'm like, I could like take the train and like, quote unquote, commute downtown and find like a hip like place to work and like even just that like could help shake things up. It's just because, oh, it takes effort. It's just easier to like go to La Colombe, which is like 200 feet away, right?

But it's it's so silly. That’s what’s so frustrating, and that's what's so frustrating is when you're in a prison of your own making and you know it's of your own making, but you still for some reason can't get out of it.

MICHELE: Yeah. Yeah. Why does it feel so hard?

HANNAH: I don't know. Because I think being stuck is still comfortable, because even if I'm like, oh, maybe I should just walk a different route. I'm like, oh, but where would that be? I don't even know what route that would be. I might get lost, all these things. And then I might do a new route and I'm like, yeah, it's not as good as my usual route.

MICHELE: This is why we've eaten at Panera so many times on this road trip.

HANNAH: I know it's good. I know I like it.

MICHELE: Yeah. And I also think like when you're stuck, it's really easy to blame other factors and like convince yourself that it's not a prison that you've made. You know, I mean, like I think we are generally prisoners in capitalism. And so there are certain things there that we can't like undo. But like there's probably more like flexibility and imaginative ways to live. But like we don't have models for them because capitalism doesn't want us to think about other ways to live.

You know, so it's like it's a bit we're doing it to ourselves. It is a part of the system that we live in. But it's really easy to convince yourself that you don't have any autonomy over those problems, you know.

HANNAH: Like you can do van life, but it does take a lot of planning and work and money. Yeah. But it is possible.

MICHELE: And you are going to be extremely uncomfortable for a long time.

HANNAH: That's true.

MICHELE: Like I think any change, any change, if it's good or bad, there's going to be a period of discomfort. And like humans want familiarity and we want safety and safety feels like what is familiar. So you're just like instinctively fearful of like any, any type of change.

HANNAH: I feel like I'm trying to find a balance between building roots, but not being stuck in a rut of familiarity. Like how do you do both, you know?

MICHELE: Yeah, like I feel very afraid of like domesticity. You know, like to like I really like want to be with my partner and settled down in some ways. But then I'm like, but also like I want an adventure partner and I want everything to be different every day.

You know, so it's like there is you want like some level of like predictability is like your foundation and then like, like you need your basic needs met and like basic things to make you feel safe and stable. Yeah, like whether that's like the home that you live in and then like the way that you engage with the city that you live in could be like more spontaneous, you know, like commit yourself to doing improv or you know what I mean? Like, I think you do need both. I can't, I don't think you could just be flailing all the time in like a productive, interesting way.

Like I think that's how I've always, that's been my philosophy around my job is like, I'm like, okay, I have a stable job that like empowers me to do more risky things like get my MFA or like commit myself to becoming a better writer, which has no real promised stability in the future. And I'm like, well, I would want like, domestic, domestic life to be similar in that way. Where it's like, I want like, you know, a person I know I can rely on and some level of predictability that we know we're going to have a stable income. But then like, I don't want every day to look the same. I want, I want to still feel like an adventure.

HANNAH: Yeah, it's like how to find flexibility around your stability.

MICHELE: Yeah, yeah. That's what stability is for. It's not to make everything predictable.

HANNAH: The whole idea of like, oh, I'll just be a freelancer and I'll have all this freedom. And then you find that trying to find gig after gig after gig is just as restrictive of having a 9 to 5 job.”

MICHELE: Yeah, exactly. If not more restrictive. Yeah, and probably way more stressful.

HANNAH: Yeah, and you're like, wait a minute. I don't feel free at all.

MICHELE: I'm in a bigger prison.

HANNAH: [laughs] Yeah, it's so weird.

MICHELE: Yeah. Well, what is something that you feel like you do have control over right now that you aren't taking advantage of, and you do have flexibility?

HANNAH: Traveling. Which like this trip helps with that. But because I have a remote job, I could be anywhere. I could be in another country. That would be complicated and expensive.

MICHELE: But it'd be so worth it.

HANNAH: It'd be cool. Yeah, like I could go... I could go to Ireland and work from Ireland. Stay in a castle.

MICHELE: Ride horses.

HANNAH: Ride tiny horses. Or regular size horses. Not everything has to be tiny. [laughs]

MICHELE: What keeps you from doing that?

HANNAH: I think you were saying like the fear.

MICHELE: Because there will be loneliness.

HANNAH: Yeah, and then I'm also like, well, fuck, I'll just be lonely anyway. I'll be in a pretty place, but I'll be by myself. So that's another thing where I don't know if I'd want to do that alone, especially for a long period of time, especially since I'm very prone to feeling lonely.

It does not take much for me to feel lonely. I'm alone for one evening, and I'm like, I'm by myself. I have no friends.

MICHELE: I'm so melodramatic about it. Never stop being melodramatic.

HANNAH: So yeah, if I went to Ireland, I'd be really excited for two days, and then I'd be like, well, shit, I'm by myself. I have no one to share this with. And then I'd be like, I might as well be back at home.

MICHELE: I might as well be lonely in a comfortable place.

HANNAH: Exactly. So I don't know. I feel like I might have to do it with someone. Or just make sure my mental health is stable enough that I can handle it.

MICHELE: So that you can ruin it in another country.

HANNAH: Or so that I know I can handle it.

MICHELE: Why does traveling feel like the thing that you need to do?

HANNAH: I guess just because I can. I don't have kids. I don't have an animal. I feel like it's something I should be taking advantage of. It feels a little bit like I should.

MICHELE: Yeah. So much growth happens during travel.

HANNAH: And I walk the same square path in my neighborhood every day. I'm just like, good lord, this is silly. Like, why am I just in one place doing the same thing? It's not like I have to.

MICHELE: What do you think you've learned on this trip since we are traveling and taking advantage of remote life?

HANNAH: What have I learned?

MICHELE: Like, what? Yeah, what's percolating?

HANNAH: Oh, I think reimagining how to my schedule, You know how to reallocate my time. Quitting one of my five jobs. Yeah. Just kind of, I feel like whenever I go on a trip, I feel like anything is possible. But then, because my mind just literally opened up. But I also remember, like last time I did that with Emily, we were on a road trip, we were just like daydreaming, like, oh my gosh, we can do this, we can do this, we can do this.

As soon as we drove into Andersonville, I could feel my mind closing back up. Like almost physically. And like all the dreams felt impossible again.

MICHELE: Yeah, why is that?

HANNAH: I don't know. But that's another reason why I'm dreading going back. I feel like this excitement's gonna fade again. Because I'm feeling really excited today. You know, like, oh, I can do this, I can change this about my schedule, I can wake up early and do this, all these things. And I just like, sometimes that doesn't last. I'm just like, oh no, I'm gonna be squashed by familiarity.

MICHELE: I know. You know, because I feel like on a road trip, you're making so many decisions every day, like, so many new decisions every day. Like, when am I gonna leave? How do I get to this Airbnb? Where are we gonna go for coffee? And even though none of that is big and different, like, you're making micro decisions like that at home or in a familiar place, too.

It feels more routine. Where, like, on a road trip, it feels spontaneous. And even, like, the concept of going on a road trip is, like, very empowering, because you're like, I'm just literally gonna drive across the country, like, today, you know? And so, like, nobody's telling you to do it, and so it feels very empowering in those ways. And then, like, everything that's nested within the road trip kind of, like, contributes to that energy and inertia. And so it's like, oh, wow, to, like, do something, you just have to do it, you know? And so I think that's what, like, yeah, it's weird to replicate that in everyday life, even though there's so many opportunities to.

HANNAH: Yeah, kind of like I was saying, I could just go downtown and, like, work.

MICHELE: Yeah, going to another neighborhood would probably be really energizing. And it wouldn't cost a lot of money.

HANNAH: Yeah, and I think part of the reason I would do that is because I'm really, like, you know how I resisted researching any of the cities we're going to? I'd have to research what neighborhood to go to. And then what coffee shop to go in that neighborhood. And, like, I just so much more.

MICHELE: Well, why can't you just, like, go?

HANNAH: Because my backpack is heavy, Michele.

MICHELE: I know.

HANNAH: And I'm like, my back hurts. Like even just imagining commuting, my back's hurting just thinking about it, because I have to take my laptop.

MICHELE: Yeah, we're in this car for six hours, but we can't get on a bus for like 45 minutes.

HANNAH: It's so silly.

MICHELE: It is silly.

HANNAH: That's one reason why it was fun for me, kind of fun, kind of annoying in other ways, but fun in some ways, to like do cat sitting in another neighborhood. It's just like, I was just in another place. And I explored the neighborhood, thought it was cool, and it came to the same conclusion. Yeah, I like Andersonville better. The same conclusion I always come to, even though it was really cool.

MICHELE: Well, sometimes you need to be in another place to like confirm what you have is good.

HANNAH: Yeah, that's true.

MICHELE: We were in so many different cities on this trip.

HANNAH: Chicago's better. Yeah, I guess maybe I want to think about without doing van life, having a more flexible life, like leaning a little bit more in that direction. Without actually selling all my things and doing van life.

MICHELE: Yeah, like being a bit more nomadic during parts of the year. Like I could see doing, yeah, I could see doing a road trip every year.

HANNAH: Basically, I don't know what I'm doing.

MICHELE: Ugh, never know. Yeah, I'm trying to like, I don't know what my reflections have been on this road trip. I think a lot of the time the place doesn't matter, but it's the people there that do. Yeah, it's true. I was like, like when I think about my time in Boulder, like what a picturesque place to visit. But I’m not remembering that as much as just like all the people that I got to meet and hang out with, you know? Or yeah, even just being in that weird attic above the garage. Don’t really want to go there again! But it was pretty fun!