Episode 64 - Live Life with Death in Mind: Words of Wisdom from an End of Life Doula

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INTRO: Today's episode is called, Live Life with Death in Mind, Words of Wisdom from an End of Life Doula. So today I talked to Jenna Golias, the founder of The Light Hereafter. She's a registered nurse, end of life doula, grief educator, and energy practitioner.

Her mission is to not only change how we provide end of life care, but to create a world where we no longer fear the end of it. In today's episode, Jenna and I talk about the work she does as an end of life doula, which is the same as death doula, just another word for it. How our society deals with grief, how grief has affected how we now approach our life, and so much more.

I hope you enjoy. Thanks for listening.

JENNA: I just got certified to be a grief-informed professional. What that had kind of entailed was to do like a couple weeks of online modules and training with actual counselors and therapists who specialize in grief. And actually the girl who ran the program also runs a hospice program too, which I thought tied in so well to what I was looking for.

But basically the grief program was for professionals who work with a lot of patients or clients that deal with grief on a regular basis. And it's like nurses or doctors or counselors, social workers who don't really get a whole lot of grief counseling or grief training through their education. So it was really helpful in the sense that helps you kind of guide when you're working with people dealing with grief in a way that it's in today's world, right?

I feel like back in the day when you learned about grief, it was walking them through the five stages of grief, and it was a linear pattern. And kind of under the assumption that everyone kind of grieves similar, which is totally not true. Everybody's grief is unique, and how long it takes them to grieve or how they grieve, everybody's style is different.

So a lot of the education kind of fell around helping people navigate grief, not in a way that is gonna necessarily help them fix grief or get rid of grief, because I don't know if that's something that necessarily ever goes away. Some people will grieve for the rest of their lives. It may not be a prevalent thing in their everyday lives, but to have it say that it's gonna completely go away, I think is inaccurate.

When you're helping people deal with grief, to give them that assumption is pretty false because they're thinking they're gonna go to therapy, go to these counseling sessions, and then all of a sudden be 100% healed and better, right? And this training kind of fell where it was more about teaching people or learning how to give people space to grieve and give them the tools throughout the process. Because one of the things as we find with grieving people, they just want to be seen and heard and understood, and they want their grief to be witnessed.

And holding space for people is one of the most therapeutic things you can do.

HANNAH: Yeah, that's amazing. So is this, I know you described, there's been like a shift over time. Is this a very recent shift, or is it kind of just like been a gradual, better understanding?

JENNA: Yeah, I feel like it's a gradual understanding. You know, as they learn through different studies and stuff, behavioral studies is, you know, like we said, like not everybody's gonna grieve in a linear pattern or go through the five stages. There's probably millions of stages, and you can go from one and back to the other and just kind of have waves.

And I think over the past several years, and probably a lot with just what our country has been going through the past couple years too with grief in all kinds of forms, we're learning that there's a lot of different ways to grieve and not everybody is gonna grieve the same way, especially different cultures or different age groups too.

HANNAH: I'm so glad that it's getting better because I still have a lot to learn about like the state of grief help in our society. But I think I'm mostly plugged in on like Instagram, just kind of seeing what other grief accounts are posting about. And I know a lot of people seem to post the same types of frustrations about how they don't feel seen or listened to or understood.

So I'm so glad that it's better. I feel like there's still a ways to go. And I'm curious if you also see that or what your thoughts are.

JENNA: Yeah, I definitely, there's definitely still a ways to go. And I can't speak from like the counseling therapeutic side, but just working in the medical field and with hospice and things like that, it's, you know, a lot of times you want to interject and tell people, this is how, this is what you do because you want to help them, right? But it's often, even taking care of patients in the hospital, they just want somebody to listen and get their point of view and be seen and heard and not necessarily all the time trying to get them to get better.

HANNAH: That's so interesting. Are there, I'm curious if there's any like similarities or patterns that you see in the people that you help, or if like truly everyone is so unique that it's like a totally brand new experience every time.

JENNA: I do try to go into it as everybody's an individual instead of putting people in boxes, or like maybe for example, somebody had a family member that died of a cancer diagnosis and you expect them to maybe grieve similar ways or something like dementia, right? Yeah, I think it's trying to see everybody as an individual because it's so vastly different. And just for the personalities or emotional histories, even things that happen in childhood is gonna affect how people grieve.

I was just reading recently about attachment styles. A lot of people look into that as like when they get into romantic relationships or friendships, they look at their attachment styles, right? But it actually is huge in how you're gonna grieve, how you process grief, how you perceive grief.”

And I read that it's like one of the biggest risk factors in developing like complicated grief, depending on your attachment style. So things like that kind of play a role into how people grieve too.

HANNAH: Wow, so what are the attachment styles again?

JENNA: So there's the secure attachment, which is obviously the one that would help people process grief a little bit better. And then there's the avoidant attachment style. So those are the folks that maybe kind of push their emotions down or don't really allow themselves to feel everything.

So they kind of are a little bit delayed in avoidance. And then there's also like the anxious attachment style, where it can maybe be like blaming themselves or having a hard time letting go and processing grief. So those are kind of the three. And there's more than that, but those are the three major ones.

HANNAH: That makes so much sense.

JENNA: I don't know, it's kind of neat if you know your attachment style and how certain things in life may affect you in the grieving process, especially.

HANNAH: Yeah, and that's kind of something that can maybe, hopefully, change throughout your life if you do some inner work, and you can maybe hopefully go from to secure.

JENNA: Yeah, that's definitely not something that can't be changed or it's fixed, right? That's something that we can all work on. I think knowing what your attachment style, to begin with, is you're already ahead of the game, right? Because you kind of know what your process is, and then working to kind of shift to the secure.

HANNAH: Wow, I wish my therapist had brought this up to me years ago. That could have helped me better understand how I've been grieving, because I think I especially used to be anxious, especially with friendships, because they can come and go so much faster than family. And so when my friend died, there was a lot of anxiety wrapped up in my grief of like, oh my God, did she actually like me?

Or am I imagining it? You know, and like, feeling all confused about what our friendship even meant, because I don't have her here to talk to me anymore, you know?

JENNA: When your friend passed away, was it like sudden or was it kind of an expected event?

HANNAH: It was sudden.

JENNA: So that makes it even harder, right? Especially if you have the anxious attachment, potentially, because sudden deaths like that are harder to grieve to begin with.

HANNAH: Yeah, and I've heard, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this too, about ambiguous, I think it's ambiguous grief, and it has probably a huge spectrum, all the way from like a missing person's case to like much, much, much more mild. Mine was, of course, much more on the mild side, but I did hear that there's some research that shows if you don't kind of get the confirmation that they're dead, like maybe say last goodbye to their body, your brain kind of has trouble processing the fact that they actually died, because it's more of an idea.”

JENNA: Right, absolutely. Yeah, that makes total sense, because we're all not given the gift of knowing when somebody is going to die or a timeline, and that definitely allows people to express to them how they feel before they pass, or repair relationships, and maybe tie up some of the regrets that they may have had. So it's a lot harder when it's something that's sudden, because you're right, and for you not to maybe physically see it or witness it, and have that connection in your brain too, it's hard, because you still feel like they're here, and they were just taken away.

So suddenly, where people that actually get to witness death, or at least know that it's coming, can sit with it a little bit better. Not that it's easy, but it's a little easier to navigate.”

HANNAH: Yeah, it's definitely not easy, but I guess it helps. This is how I think about it, I don't know if it's true, but it helps the brain to process it a little bit better.

JENNA: Yeah, your brain and your heart and your emotions. All of it, right?

HANNAH: Yeah, because my friend's funeral was closed casket, and I mean, open casket would have been extremely traumatic as well. So it's kind of like lose-lose situation. But that could have been a way I could have like said goodbye and kind of had that connection.

But instead, it was like, here is a box, and I'm told that she's in there. And I'm like, okay, I have to kind of believe you, you know, not that I think I'm being tricked, but just like my brain.

JENNA: No, you're right, because that's how we are, right? We like the evidence and the facts. And when you can't actually physically see it or feel it or touch it, it's how hard to grasp that it's truly happened. So that makes total sense. Yeah.

HANNAH: Yeah, I'm curious in your work, and it might just depend on the person. But do you find that like kind of describing some of the science or reasoning behind it comforts people? Because I found that it makes me feel less crazy—

JENNA: Like learning about like, regarding death?

HANNAH: Yeah.

JENNA: That's one of the biggest reasons why I got into this work. Seeing it, seeing death a lot through the nursing perspective. I work in a hospital, right? So it was more of they have some warning, but not a lot. If you're dying in a hospital, it's relatively sudden. Maybe it's a couple of days.

Even as nurses and doctors, you don't really have a lot of time to sit with family and the patients even to educate them on what is happening. And so from the doula perspective, I have the opportunity to put the nursing aside, but it also plays a good role because I have that knowledge. But to educate family and even the person that is going through the dying process of just like little things, like people don't realize this is kind of how the body shuts down or maybe these are the senses that they can hear up until the very end.

So even though they may not be conscious, you can still speak to them and they're hearing what you say. Just kind of going through that process or their breathing pattern, it doesn't make it easy, but it does help them kind of grasp and kind of understand what's to come. And that's been comforting to a lot of them. Just kind of knowing what to expect in the phases and things like that.

HANNAH: Yeah, I didn't even think of that, but that would feel more comforting to kind of know what's happening.

JENNA: Right, because when you have a loved one that's passing, and they may not be conscious or able to speak to you, a lot of people will just kind of sit there, and they don't understand what's going on, but they can still feel touched and still hear them. And having comforting words and playing music or smells, things that their senses can still wrap, they can still obtain is super healing for the person that's dying too.

HANNAH: And maybe people don't know this, but do you happen to know if the body has a way to kind of protect itself from pain in its last moments?

JENNA: Yeah, I mean, it's kind of hard to say, right? Because if they can't speak to us, we don't really know. What my work is to kind of focus on too is right when people get to the end of life and maybe they're on hospice, a lot of people in the medical world do treat their physical symptoms, right?

They are getting pain medications to make them more comfortable. But a lot of what we don't focus on is like their spiritual pain or spiritual healing or energetic healing. So I do a couple of energy modalities that help ease that side of it too, like Reiki and mind, body, spirit release and focusing on all the person as a whole, right? Because it's not just physical that they're going through, it's emotional and it's energetic too.

HANNAH: Oh, wow. Yeah, that's really, really cool.

JENNA: Yeah, and then also helping the families and caregivers with the same things, because it's a lot. It's a lot when you're a primary caregiver for a family member that's passing, and everybody is focused obviously on the family member that's passing, and rightfully so, but we also have to make sure we're taking care of the caregivers and family members too, because they're suffering as well. Yeah.

HANNAH: So in these situations, are you usually the only doula in the room, or is it sometimes more than one doula, like one more focused on the patient and one more on the family and friends?

JENNA: It's usually just me. I don't know how much you know about death doulas and endo-life doulas, but it's a fairly new practice, right? It's not something like that's well, well known yet, like birth doulas. So usually, and it varies, right? Like a family may hire me just for the patient or person that's passing. Other times, they hire me for them, or it's a combination of the whole unit.

So I just kind of go in there and ask what they need, and I'll assess the patient. They'll still have hospice and medical services. We all work as a team, but my goal is to work with the whole unit. And the ultimate goal is to really work with people who are first diagnosed, helping them adjust to this new lifestyle of coming to their end of life, working with a family and unit during the dying process, and then also continuing to work with the family after they pass. I think having that whole circle is more important than just the small window of when they pass.”

HANNAH: That makes so much sense, that you're before, during, and after.

JENNA: Yeah, and my hope is the more and more people learn about end of life doulas, the more they'll take advantage of our services earlier on, instead of right up until the end when we maybe only have a little bit of time with them, because it's also a lot about to the person that's dying and helping them grieve their end of life, and maybe helping them, you know, execute their end of life plan and their legacy and how they want it to look, and helping them, you know, be a part of their own death instead of on the sidelines.

HANNAH: Yeah, we need, how can we tell everyone?

JENNA: Well, there's like, yeah, I mean, if you here's like Google end of life doulas in your area, there's also different directories, like the National End of Life Doula Alliance that you get your certification process through. That's like the gold standard. There's an international one too, and it'll have like directories based on state and city where you can look up end of life doulas.

A lot of it on social media, websites. You know, it's such a needed service, and I really hope that people, you know, take advantage of it more and the word gets out more.

HANNAH: I know I want to like shout it from the rooftop, but not enough people follow me on Instagram. The people who follow me already know about it. And I didn't even know they existed until I started my podcast. And I think I was telling a friend, Oh, I'm doing this podcast about like grief and death. And they were like, Oh, I have a friend who's a death doula. And I was like, Oh, a-what-a? That's a thing. I was like, so shocked as I was only a couple years ago.

JENNA: Yeah, it's still fairly, like I said, fairly new profession. But I think it's going to be huge. I think it's something that's needed. You know, we see bringing life into the world and how they, you know, when you are pregnant and are going to have a baby, you have like a plan, right? Like, this is what I want my birth to look like. This is where I want it to happen.

This is who I want to be there. These are the things I'm packing and bringing to the hospital. If you have, you know, this is the music I want playing, the smells I want in my room. And I always ask people like, what would that look like at the end of your life? You know, you should think about that. And I think it's just as important to have the plan and the support coming into life as you are leading life.

HANNAH: Even like small things, because I wonder if I'm misremembering, but like things like whether or not you want to wear socks in bed, because some people are just so uncomfortable in socks. But maybe if you can't speak anymore, people put socks on you and you can't do anything about it. It's like you have a list, like no socks, like no thick blanket or whatever, no music.

JENNA: Or it's like if they have an aversion to some kind of smell in a lotion or something, or maybe it's a favorite scent, or their favorite music that they love, or even the people that they want there. Because you may have people that are in their room that you don't want to be there. And I don't know, yeah, you're right. It's like all the things.

HANNAH: Yeah, it's almost like you have to... Is there a way to make a legal document of what you want? Or how does that work? Is it kind of informal?

JENNA: It's kind of informal. Yeah, I mean, it's not like a legal document, like your healthcare power of attorney or things like that would be. But again, that's another reason why having these conversations and not avoiding talking about death is important, right? Because I actually was reading, I don't know if I saw it online or on a post or something, but it was like they were talking about what is the biggest fear for Americans. It was just funny because number one was public speaking. But number two was the second fear was death. A lot of people have death anxiety, and I think that's avoidance too.

HANNAH: I'm just surprised that's second to speaking.

JENNA: I know, right?

HANNAH: I feel like that should be flipped.

JENNA: I know. But also being that high up on the list, we still don't talk about it, and people don't want to talk about it. They avoid it, and I feel like when it comes to the end, then it's a really hard thing for them to grasp.

HANNAH: And I was just thinking about how birth doulas, one of the many reasons why they're so amazing to have is that they can advocate for the mother if she's kind of out of it or something, and the doctor's like, I'm going to use forceps, and she's like, no, no forceps. I feel like it could be kind of the same thing where it's like, no, no socks, or they said they didn't want this person here.

JENNA: Right, and that's 100% true. And me coming from my nursing background, too, one thing that I helped do is be their advocate in medical situations, too, because going to appointments or hospital visits, because, again, people can try to convince you to do many things in the medical world that you may not want to. And if you're not understanding what all these treatments and things actually are, it's easy to be convinced to do something just because somebody tells you to, or they think it's the best course of treatment.

So a lot of times, like, I'll help advocate or help educate them on that, and, too, this is what this means, and just kind of be their personal advocate, too, which is good because there's not a lot of that in the medical world yet either.

HANNAH: I know, and we really need that because we're forced to make these decisions, and it's like, well, I don't know. I'm not a doctor. How am I supposed to know which one's better? I got to choose?

JENNA: And they're telling me this is the best option, so I must believe them, right?

HANNAH: Right.

JENNA: Yeah, so there's a lot of work that can be done in that arena, too.

HANNAH: And it is. It's all connected. I mean, because I'm just also thinking, I remember learning about how birth, it's probably changed recently, but how it went like really medical, and it didn't even used to take place in the hospital, and it used to take place in the homes, and the doulas or the midwives would be the ones who gave birth, helped with the birth, and then it became a very doctor hospital thing.

And the same thing kind of happened with death, because I remember talking to someone who did research on it and said that it used to happen in the home, and then now most of it happened in the hospital.

JENNA: And if you ask anybody, I would say the majority of the people, if they could describe where they want it to be at their end of life, it would be at home, right? And not in a hospital or a long-term care facility, or even a hospice facility necessarily. But we've kind of veered away from that birth and death.

But it's interesting because a lot of other countries and cultures, they still do that. They have like three generations that all live in the same household. So they're bringing life in, and these young kids are being exposed to their grandparents dying in their home, which again is something here we shield, I feel like, our kids from, is we shield them from death.

And I don't think that they should necessarily be exposed to everything, but also they should be aware of kind of what's happening too, and being exposed to that is going to help them as adults going through grief and going and having people that they love pass and things like that.

HANNAH: Oh my gosh. I mean, so much about Western culture needs to be different. All this individualism, which is connected to the not living with family as much as other cultures, which is connected to not being there when people die, which is connected to being more disconnected. It's all connected.

JENNA: And it's like the other thing too is like, you know, the way our country and just the world is now, there's so many more people that aren't getting married or don't have partnership, long-term partnerships. So that in turn leads to more people dying alone, you know, which is another why I got what my passion for this is too, because, you know, no one should die alone. And I think, again, like knowing that there are doulas to help you with that.

And I think like our generation coming up that we're not getting married as frequently or having lifelong partners, that, you know, that work's going to be important, you know, in the next coming years.

HANNAH: And because my podcast is also about friendship, I'm very like, I also want to change the idea one day, hopefully that you don't have to be married to not be alone.

JENNA: Yeah, that's so funny, because I was like literally my friend, I'm gonna look it up. She just sent me a podcast yesterday, and I listened to it this morning, but it was something about what relationships would you want.And it was the Ezra Klein show, but it talked a lot about friendship partnerships and how we're moving towards even like living with friends in houses and long-term life, and those are your emergency contacts, and those are the people that are at your bedside in the hospital or raising kids together. It was just they were talking a lot about those concepts, and I find that interesting. I do feel like that's, you know, a lot of times your friends are your family, even more so than your blood family.

Even in the grieving world and counseling world, or even when somebody like a friend passes, you know, and if it's your spouse or a parent or a child, you know, there's so much more support, not only from counseling, but from the community and outside world. But when a friend passes, it's almost like, oh, I'm sorry that happened, and there's not, that's it. You know, there's not a lot of strong, I'm sure you're realizing it, but not a lot of strong support when a friend passes.

HANNAH: I'm making the emoji where it's just like, line, line, line, because you're just like, because oh, boy, oh, boy, do I agree with that. I don't know if you know, have noticed this, and maybe it's changed in the past few years, but at least like five years ago, I could not find a single, I'm not kidding, not one, grief group for those who lost friends.

JENNA: That's wild.

HANNAH: There were ones for spouses and pets, which are good, they should have those.

JENNA: I know, but like a pet, you know, I'm not diminishing the loss of a pet, but a friend who is your family, you know, that's pretty sad that there's not many grief support groups. I think I have seen a couple, but you're right, it's not nearly as prevalent as some of the other grief support circles.

HANNAH: Yeah, I'm glad there's at least a couple. It's so weird, I couldn't find them.

JENNA: Even if you look at like bereavement policies like in the employment industry, like for you to get time off when grandma dies, you know, they'll give you like five days, but if you had like a friend pass away, that's not, it has to, they, you know, they still are going by, like, it has to be like first blood relatives, you know, that's sad. I think that that should change as well.

HANNAH: There's a lot of work that needs to be done with that. And also just like assuming that someone should be okay within five days. Like even five days doesn't seem like enough to me.

JENNA: Not at all, you know, and I, well, it's just like other countries, when they develop like their vacation time from work, you know, they get like three months off out of the year, or if they have a baby, you know, they get off like six months. Like in the US, it's like, okay, 12 weeks max, or, you know, which 12 weeks for birth, great. But like, how about 12 weeks for death? You know, like, that would be amazing.

HANNAH: I think it really a lot of it boils down to capitalism and the fact that we need to be productive little worker bees.

JENNA: Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's sad. Instead of, you know, taking care of your employees and the actual person, you know, you're right, they're worried about the finances of it all.

HANNAH: And I'm sure that they're worried about people just saying somebody died just to get time off, which I'm sure there's a way to figure out a way to prove that. Like, there's a way to make sure that doesn't happen as much, I feel like.

JENNA: Right. I think I remember like one of my first jobs when I was younger. I think I had to like, it wasn't maybe like a blood relative, and I had to like send them like an obituary or something. But, you know, I still think, you know, that's kind of ridiculous. But like, yeah, I think that. Yeah, people aren't going to. I hope that people don't just make that up. Let's just say that. I'd be worried about karma.

HANNAH: I know. I'm curious how your view on life has changed since you've been in End of Life Doula.

JENNA: Yeah, great question. That a lot of, interestingly, a lot of going through the training process to be in End of Life Doula, though a lot of the exercises and homework per se that we did was really tapping into our own selves and maybe our fears around death. And what looking into that and, you know, for me, I wasn't necessarily that I never really had a fear of death itself, like the actual dying process, or maybe what happens after I don't know if we'll know until that actually happens, you know.

But for me, my fear was maybe not living life fully. That when I got to the end, I didn't feel like I had a full life, or that I did everything that I wanted to, or became the person that I wanted to leave a legacy as. So that kind of helped me shift pretty significantly kind of my outlook on life.

You know, I went through a phase in life, you know, early on in my career, where I was so focused on just studying and my furthering my education, getting all the degrees that I kind of felt like I missed out on living a little bit. So when I hit my 30s, I kind of went through a phase where I did everything. I traveled, I went skydiving, I did all the crazy hikes, you know, going through thinking like I have to make up for lost time.

I want to live fully. And, you know, a lot of people, you know, reflecting on this through my death work, a lot of during that time, a lot of people look like, wow, I really envy you. You're really living life fully.

You know, I want I want to be doing what you're doing. And I had, you know, great experiences and met some great people. But I was lacking like deep, meaningful relationships, I think, during that time. And then also lacking just being in the present moment. So for me, it's kind of was finding that balance of, of course, doing the things that I want to and not waiting to do the things that I want to, but also being present when I do those things and developing like deep, meaningful relationships and connections rather than, you know, many, many friends. For me, it's important to have a small circle that I really align with and have the same values and connect with and relationships with.

So that's kind of how I shifted, you know, a little bit of my perspective on life. You know, one of the things that I find so interesting is there's a country of Bhutan where a lot of the Buddhist population lives. They actually was ranked the happiest country in the nation. And the reasoning behind that is because on average, they actually contemplate and think about their own death about five times a day. Right. Here, we don't we avoid it at all costs.

But yeah. And it's not something that they sit there and think about and ruminate on all day long. But they are very aware that, you know, we're all going to die at some point. And what that in turn helps them helps them do is tune into the present moment. I mean, what a what an awesome shift that is. So just even thinking about it more and talking about death more, I think would help shift a lot of that for us.

HANNAH: And is that is that something you talk to your clients about and kind of help them with as they go through the grieving and or dying process? It kind of helps them live in the present moment.

JENNA: Help them live in the present moment, but also, you know, have them tell their story of their life, because there's not a lot of people that know a lot about them. And that way they can reflect on certain things that are important to them. And I always ask them or if there's different projects that we can do towards the end, you know, what do you want your legacy to be?

Is there something that we want to create together, whether it's art or some kind of like video or or even written on paper of the legacy that you want to leave? Or is there anything that you want to do before you die or help repair? Like a lot of times it's relationships with certain people, which is super amazing to see that they become at peace with that. So yeah, different things like that.

HANNAH: That's really interesting. And I'm thinking too about how you said, like, when you first wanted to live more, you were like doing all the things and going everywhere. And that makes me think of like roots that are going sideways and then like living, having deeper relationships, like roots going deeper. And I also wonder if that's, I mean, huge generalization here, but like the 20s and early 30s are for like sideways roots. And then you're like, Oh, actually, I want to go down.

JENNA: And then, yeah, of course. And you your priorities shift to, you know, age as well. But also something to think about even during those years is, and I'm probably sure like you experience with your friend, like you don't know when your ends going to be.

And developing those roots and those relationships even early in your early years are important because we never know when our time is going to be up. And I think having the intention of living that way every day, when you get to the end, not that it's not going to be hard, but you may be more at peace with it.

HANNAH: And do you happen to know kind of maybe the most common regrets people have if they do share regrets with you?

JENNA: Yeah, a lot of most of the people will say is they didn't do everything they wanted to do in life. And it could be as simple as not taking that trip or they were for so many years, you know, worrying about saving money instead of, you know, having fun and enjoying. That's a big regret is not achieving the things that they want to achieve. The other thing is working too much. That's a big one. Yeah, they spent a lot of their lives working or worrying about things that are out of their control.

And then, you know, another big one was just the relationships and maybe not telling the people in their lives that they love them, you know, more often or just like little things like that.

HANNAH: That's really important to know, too, because, I mean, you literally have to go against the grain to work less. Everything around us is like, work more, work more, work more. And so it's like you have to push against the current to go the opposite of that. And also same with saving. I mean, saving is important, but like having that balance between saving and spending and enjoying, which is really tough, I think, for a lot of people.

JENNA: Well, and like kind of like you said, like going against the current. It's and then our culture in America, too, is like, let's do everything we can to live longer. I'm not saying that's not a good thing. I am all into being healthy and doing all the things for quality of life. But we're so focused on how are we going to live longer? Like, how are we going to live to 100?

How are we going to do this? Instead of, again, that's another avoidance of actually that everybody is going to die at some point. You know, people are just so focused on let's live as long as we can, let's do all these things.

And in other cultures, like I said, you know, they're thinking, they're reminded daily that everybody's going to die at some point. And I don't know, just changes their lifestyle a little bit, I think.

HANNAH: Yeah, and you're probably more focused on quality rather than quantity.

JENNA: Exactly, exactly.

HANNAH: We're a very quantity country.

JENNA: We are. We're very advanced in a lot of things, but, you know, death care is definitely not one of them. Yeah.

HANNAH: I'm like, can we all take this class you took? Yeah, it's kind of like how I think that public school should have classes on budgeting and raising children. It should also have a class on death and grief.

JENNA: Well, yeah. And it's like even they're talking about like in this grief course that I took, like, you know, the kids in high school or middle school, you know, they're getting sex education at a young age. Like, why aren't we giving like death education or grief education, you know, tools that are going to apply to everybody, too?

HANNAH: Literally everybody. It's so insane. It doesn't make any sense. Oh, my gosh. I do think I really do think that my friend's death changed my perspective a lot, maybe in hopefully similar ways that you were saying, where you're just much more aware of death.

JENNA: What kind of shifts do you feel like you made in your life after your friend passed as far as that goes?

HANNAH: Yeah, it was kind of like a re-scrambling of my priorities. It was just like, I'm just imagining a house of cards and then just crumbles, and I'm like, oh god, and I have to sift through the cards, like, what are they? And rebuild it, and then you just end up building a different house.

And I definitely kind of had a more eff it attitude, like, eff it. I'm just going to move to the city because I've always wanted to, I'm just going to do it. So it's more of like, I just need to do the things now kind of attitude. So I do think, I really do think that I took chances earlier.

JENNA: Yeah, it sounds like it. Yeah, that's amazing. Not many people, even when they are faced with something like you were faced with, have that outlook afterwards, you know. So that's pretty, pretty cool that you, you changed your lifestyle.

HANNAH: Yeah, and I think I did, or I'm just seeing it in hindsight. Yeah, and it might have been more out of desperation than like maturity. You know, desperation, I don't know.

JENNA: But you may have never taken that chance otherwise, right? So yeah, and doing what you're doing now, which is such a beautiful tribute to your friend because you're providing the space for people who are grieving friends. And, you know, that's amazing.

HANNAH: Thank you. I was just thinking the other day about how, like, like I, by this point, I have a handful of loved ones who have passed, like all my grandparents, my friend, other family members. And it's, it's kind of weird because in some ways I feel like they're just living long distance and I just can't call them. You know, like, do you know what I'm trying to say? I don't know.

JENNA: Yeah, it's like, that's the thing, right? It's like, it's not necessarily, depending on what you believe, like a complete end to them. You know, they're going to still show up in different parts of your life.

It may be like something that you see in nature reminds them of you or a smell or something that you're eating or cooking or a memory. You know, those are all things that still feel like they're still here, and I don't think we should ever diminish that or make that go away. I think that's important to keep their spirit alive.

HANNAH: Yeah, it's kind of like they still feel real. They still feel, which, and because they still feel real, because they are real and they were real, they still kind of feel alive. And it's just like, oh, but now there's a communication barrier. And yeah, I can talk to them and maybe they're talking to me and I can't hear them, but who knows how that works? You know, right.

JENNA: And maybe it's just, you know, accepting that maybe they are talking to you just in different forms. You can't hear them, but maybe something that reminds you of them pops up and there maybe there's a reason for that, you know, that their way of communicating to you.

HANNAH: Yeah, yeah, it could be. It's so weird. But the way I've comforted myself recently is, so I'm 31. So I just tell myself like, I'll see them in 70 years. Not that I'm naturally going to live to 100, but like, okay, it's just a really hard, long distance relationship. And I'll see them in 70 years, which is a really long time. But like, I don't know, in a morbid, weird way, that's kind of comforted me. I don't know.

JENNA: Oh, of course. And that's, yeah, it's, you're saying that you're going to see them again. Like, that wasn't the complete end. And that definitely helped with the grieving process. And, you know, having that belief that you will see them again does really help you get through the day to day and the really hard things.

HANNAH: And I know, like, not everyone necessarily believes that, or they don't know what they believe. And I could imagine, like, people's belief system also affects how they're able to grieve.

JENNA: Yeah, of course. And that's something, too, when I'm working with people, is always asking them, you know, their belief systems, because that does play a role into how people grieve and maybe what their rituals are surrounding death and really honoring that as well.

HANNAH: Yeah. And I like that it's like a respecting of people's beliefs rather than, like, trying to convince them of...

JENNA: Oh, no, of course. And again, that's another just example of holding space for them.

HANNAH: Yeah. I love talking about signs. And I know, like, some people believe them. Some people don't. I'm just curious what your thoughts are on signs from loved ones who've passed.

JENNA: Oh, yeah, I definitely believe in it. You know, whether it's they come to you in a form of a dream or maybe it's, you know, the same bird that comes to your window every day. Yeah, I definitely think that, again, that's a lot probably what people's belief systems are.

But I do feel like there's always a connection there. I mean, it's something that to it's like, I remember I had a friend that passed away in January, not of this year, but it's been about five years. And I kind of I knew the time was coming.

And one of the things that we used to do is like sit on her porch, and she always had this like bluebird that would be in her yard. And then for like two weeks around that time, I swear to God, I would see like 10 bluebirds like throughout my day. It was like wild. So I can't help but to think that that's like a sign, right?

HANNAH: Yeah, I definitely believe it.

JENNA: What kind of signs have you noticed in your life with different folks?

HANNAH: I have a lot. I think the most kind of magical feeling one was I was on the train, and it was New Year’s Eve, and it was maybe two years after my friend passed. And New Year’s Eve, I would just be sad because I’m like, great, it’s another year. Another year that I’m getting older and she’s not, kind of thing. And I was on the train in Chicago, on the L, and my phone started buzzing, kind of like this weird Morse code, weird rhythm. And I was like, that’s weird.

I wasn't getting any notifications or anything. It wasn't ringing. And then I just had this spark of inspiration or just thought, I was like, oh, Lauren, is that you? And it was like, it just started freaking out. It was so wild.

And then so I just, for the rest of the ride, was like talk, asking it questions, and it would wait and listen. And after I asked the question, it would buzz back. And so that happened for a while, and then it was kind of quiet.

And I like ran out of questions, because it's like you think you have a million questions, and then when you're under pressure, you're like, I only have five questions, and mainly it's, are you okay? Yeah. And then I got off the train, and it hadn't buzzed in a while, and I was like, oh my god, oh my god, no, no, no. Are you still there? Like, don't go away. And it went, and I heard, I heard, I'm still here in my head. It was so wild.

JENNA: It's like, yeah, like sometimes like a voice or something, or just like a feeling you have in your body, like a wave of emotion, y’know? So yeah< it can come in all forms. I definitely believe that.

HANNAH: And I'm still like, I don't know, learning about them and hearing other people's stories, and I think a lot of it just is like, if it feels really significant, then that's like, then that's something, right? Yeah, exactly. Like, the feeling that comes with it is huge. And the moment that it happens.

JENNA: In a moment, yeah, exactly. The two that just synchronicity for sure, yeah…What would you describe as a good death to you personally? What would you want your death to look like, or your end of life, I should say? That's just something I like to throw out there for people to think about.

HANNAH: That's a great question.

JENNA: And you don't have to answer if it's not something you know, but it's always good to just kind of start thinking about that because...

HANNAH: Yeah, I think that's something we should talk about more. I think my answer might sound like most people's answers potentially where I would love it to be in a familiar place, probably a home with friends and family or whoever is available. I'd love to be able to say one last goodbye to everyone. And then, yeah, for the final moments, I'd probably, I might just want my closest people there. Just so it's not too crowded. I don't know. Is there like a common answer people have?

JENNA: No, I just love to hear it because again, it's like, we talked about like your birth plan, right? And like, what would be like the perfect birth beat to you? Like what would be your perfect death? And like some, like I would always say, like I want to be out in nature at sunset, barefoot, maybe a couple of close people to me. Just thinking, just contemplating that and thinking about that, I think starting the conversations.

HANNAH: And also like the last maybe few months of your life. It's weird. I think about that more than the actual last moments.

JENNA: Yeah, yeah. Cause that's hard to predict too, you know? I mean, you can predict it within hours or even days, but as hard as it is to get like a terminal diagnosis or something at the end of your life, it's also a blessing because you are going to be more prepared to the past than rather if it's something sudden, so.

HANNAH: Yeah, cause if I had some time, I would fly, I would spend the rest of my money or I mean, I want to figure out how to give my money to loved ones, but I would spend some money on traveling to say goodbye to, if they couldn't come to me and then settling down and like grounding and rooting after that.

JENNA: I love that, that's beautiful.