Episode 65 - How to be a Grief Ally: with Aly Bird

Listen to the episode

INTRO: Hello, friends. Today's episode is all about how to be a grief ally. So what does that mean? That means supporting your loved ones who are grieving. I don't know about you, but I often am stumped about what to do or say, even though I've been through it too. So today I talked to Aly Bird, who wrote the book Grief Ally, which teaches us how to support the bereaved.

Since her husband's untimely death, Aly Bird has poured her heart into helping those who feel helpless during an unexpected crisis. Her extensive study of grief psychology and culture, combined with her own devastating firsthand knowledge, led her to create a roadmap for those committed to supporting the bereaved. As a psychotherapist, speaker, and author, Aly is on a mission to change the way we show up for grieving people in our culture. Without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Aly Bird.

ALY: The concept of the book really started from a trend I was seeing in Facebook groups among bereaved people, people who had lost children, husbands, wives, friends, people all looking for a place to be with others who knew what they were experiencing at some level. And what I noticed was 75% of the conversation in those spaces was conversation about feeling like forgotten or misunderstood or left behind by the people around them in their community, like the community that existed when that person was alive. I am a person who, for better or worse, is very good at identifying themes and identifying problems.

It's been a learned skill to not be fixated on fixing all the problems. But my lived experience after Will died was that I actually had a very positive social support experience. My friends, very emotionally literate, were willing to continue to show up despite not having the answers and willing to stay close to me after we've done the cultural things of bringing food and sending flowers and going to the funeral.

They recognized this is going to take a really long time and I’m not going to abandon you. Whereas all the people I was trying to find community with were feeling as though they were losing their people.

HANNAH: Oh my gosh. Yeah.

ALY: So I was working as a coach before Will died, and something that’s always been very close to my heart is like courage. An I was like, well, first of all, I thought like who is teaching these people the wrong thing. And then I went onto the internet and I was like, “oh nobody’s teaching them anything about how to support someone through the long haul of grief.”

Like literally that’s it. It’s like, bring food, send flowers, go to the funeral, send a card and like don’t disappear. But other than that, there’s really no clear direction about how to support someone who is grieving.

HANNAH: It’s so true.  

ALY: I took the lessons that I learned from my community, that what I knew about self-care and courage from my coaching work. And then all this stuff that I was learning about grief psychology and science, that was just like where my brain wanted to od grief. And I wrapped that all into Grief Ally as a tool for when someone dies.

And I’d say this is very much the norm, particularly in Western culture, because we don’t know what to do with grief. Someone dies and then everybody’s like oh no, like, what do I do? How do I help? How do I not make this worse? And there's like this helplessness to it. So I wanted to make the tool that it's like, okay, here, read this or listen to this or download this.

And like it's just a super quick, simple guide to give you the knowledge that you need and the mindset that you need to show up for someone and like stay present in their life through the long haul of their grief, which is something that I feel was like really missing in terms of resources. Like there are a lot of great books about grief or, you know, memoirs about living with loss, but they're all very much geared towards the people at the epicenter of a tragedy, right? Like my husband died, therefore, like this is my lived experience.

And you can see it on the cover of books, right? Like this book is great for the bereaved and the people who love them. But it's always like that. And people who love them is like an afterthought. So this book, the book that I wanted to write, was making the people who are looking for the answers, the people whose brains are working to a much greater capacity than the bereaved are. Like give them the tools.

And that way, you know, we make grief less of a process of self-care, which I recognize, you know, there is a, there is a role for self-care in taking care of yourself when you are grieving. But to ask people to like go and find other people, go make new friends, because your friends can't and don't have the literacy to support you, just seemed very wrong to me.

So yeah, the book is, the book is more geared towards the brief person's community and equipping them with the knowledge skills mindset that they need. So that person can feel supported within their own environment with the people that they already know.

HANNAH: First of all, yeah, we very much need that. Like, good lord, do we need that. And secondly, like, I have so much to learn and everyone does. After I went through a horrible tragedy, I understood it a lot better how to support people. Like, I knew what not to say. But like, I still feel like I have a lot to learn because whenever a loved one goes through a tragedy, I feel slightly more equipped than I used to, but I still am like, oh shit.

Like, I do kind of feel a little helpless still. And then, like, I want to text them, like, months and months and months later because I know that a lot of times people forget. But I'm also, part of me is like, oh no, am I bothering them? Like, are these texts getting annoying? You know, so I'm still like trying to figure that out.

ALY: Yeah. And I think, too, like, you know, you say that you're still looking for, like, the right thing to do. I think the important thing, and I teach this in the book, is that, like, even if you have supported one, two, a dozen people in their grief, like, everybody's grief experience is so different. Like, the type of loss is different. How they grieve is different. How they want to be supported is different.

So, even if you've done it, like, a multitude of times, like, beforehand, when it happens to someone new, like, the best thing that you can do is, like, forget everything you've learned and just tune in to this one person so you can learn how to best support them, because everyone is different. Keep the cliches out of everything, right? Like, don't try those again.

HANNAH: Yeah. Do you recommend that we ask the person how they want to be supported? Because I think part of me is, like, they're so exhausted and, like, they're, you know, like, I know, like, when I was in the throes of it, I would be really frustrated if someone asked me that. I'd be like, I don't know.

ALY: Yeah. No, you're totally right. Like, people are, like, at the center of a tragedy, are bombarded with, like, how do I help you? Or, like, call me if you need anything. I discourage those two statements. My advice, and I teach this in the book, is there are three things that you need to give to someone who is grieving. The first is to respect for what they are experiencing and that it will be different than anybody else’s experience. The second one is empowerment. And what we know about trauma, about resilience, is that when people are, can exercise as much agency about their lived experience through anything hard, they have a better chance of being okay later on.

So empowering the person to say like this, you know, or not say, but just empowering them to be like, do whatever it is that you need. And then this plays into the third thing, which is unconditional love. So say to them, do whatever you need to do to survive this. I love you and I will love you no matter what. So if that is asking me for help or me being the support person, great. If it is not, I will love you anyways.

Because I think our egos get caught up in grief support too, right? Like we feel like, oh, that person is my best friend or that person is my sister or that person is my child. And I need to be the person who is with them. But that might not be the best thing for them. So what you can do is say like, I respect you. I empower you to do what's best for you.

And I'm going to love you no matter what. That's kind of the framework that I set up. That's how I define grief allyship is offering those three things. And then from there, instead of saying like, what can I do for you? Or call me if you need something. Think about your own strengths, assets, resources that you have, and offer those up to someone.

And I mean, if you're close enough to them, like they know what your strengths are, right? Like they know somebody who's going to be a good cook that can like, you know, invite them over for dinner versus someone who is really great with details and like planning and like, maybe organizing a closet or something, right? But like, it's completely fine to stick to your strengths.

Because the greater narrative is bring food, right? Like feed this person. That's how you fix them. Yeah, I myself like, I'm really, I could make a great soup, but like, I'm not a person like, who is wildly great at cooking, nor do I really like it. I go through phases. So I'm not, I'm not a, you know, a grief support by food person, but I have people in my life who are, and that's great.

I also have people in my life who are like willing to be like, my couch is your couch. If you just want to exist in a space with other people, you are welcome to come hang out on my couch for as long as you need. Or like, hey, I know you have a fireplace. Do you need me to chop some wood? Whatever. Or you could be the person who holds their feelings.

Like, I know you are a great listener, so I'm going to be the person who you're going to be the person that I talk to, right? Like we have so many needs when we are grieving that there is really a niche for everyone in someone's support network when it comes to grief support. It doesn't have to be food and flowers. And listening.

HANNAH: I actually don't like getting flowers. I mean, okay, some exceptions to that. Like I've gotten flowers once or twice and it was nice. But like, I would rather get other stuff because also flowers die and that's kind of depressing. I don't know. I just have a different feeling of flowers than most people.

ALY: No, you're not wrong. I'm sure actually that's probably quite widespread.

HANNAH: Yeah. It's like, oh, flowers. Alright. So this is really helpful. So I guess if you could give an example, like maybe you said you had really great support. If you're comfortable sharing maybe something that someone did, that is a good example.

ALY: I have some great examples. So the chopping wood example, that's an example. I had a bunch of people come over and just chop wood for my wood stove. I had the couch example is another one. Literally have a number of friends whose couch is my couch, which I greatly appreciate. I've had people lend me their dog because they had a dog and I did it, and I was just looking for some company, but not a human.

They just like leave their dog with me for the weekend. I have a friend who is a lawyer who was willing to help me read through or find answers to legal questions that I had after it happened. I think too, we have this, we can talk about where it comes from another day, but in Western culture, we have this feeling that when a death happens, the support needs to happen immediately.

We have less reflection about what's happening in our own bodies, that anxious energy, that helplessness that we're trying to find an outlet for. And I think that is the reason why a lot of conflict happens when someone dies. So in my book, I write about a story that happened, there was a big fight in a parking lot, and a number of my support people got into it.

Feelings were hurt, people peel out of the parking lot, it was not a pleasant experience. Particularly for me, like watching all these people, I'm like, I know what you're like, I am very aware of what you are all feeling. And I recognize you are all just here to help.

But like, death sometimes comes with like trauma and shock. And Will died instantly and unexpectedly. So like I was in shock and I didn't necessarily need all the support at that time that was being like offered to me.

So I think to the important thing when we're talking about grief support is that it doesn't necessarily have to be immediate, right? Like you can offer what it is that you are good at that you are willing to do, and then just put it out there and wait. And I can tell you now that like every person who was part of that argument, I am now closer to because they obviously did not have a great time at that point, but like I was willing, I was able to rely on them, one year, two year, three years down the road on the strengths and assets that they have.

HANNAH: Yeah, it's amazing.

ALY: Like my brother flew out for the funeral. We lived on the other side of the country. Three years later, I really, really wanted to go, like, I love dancing. And for the first few years that Will died, I was like, do not want to dance. Like, I am not happy enough to do this. But then when it came time, my sister got married.

We had a great time on the dance floor. And then I was like, you know what? I want to do this more. Like, I want to find more outlets to go dancing. My brother is a huge EDM fan. He's like, come to this festival. And now it's like, it's now an annual family thing. And we have griefy moments at the festival. We connect more emotionally than in any other environment. But that's his thing, right? That is his world. That is where he shines. And I was able to lean into that in terms of support after Will's death. So it doesn't have to be instant or within the first year. If you respect, empower, and provide someone with unconditional love, you will get your chance.

HANNAH: That's good to know too. Yeah. And I'm just thinking about, I don't know why this came up, but I'm thinking about the love languages, which I know are not perfect and don't encapsulate all forms of love.

I'm just going to say that. But I'm just thinking about how a lot of the examples are acts of service. And I feel like the type of love I'm more easily or just readily, without thinking, offer to people is like quality time, like listening, like being there and listening.

So like, I guess could, I know you said like, yeah, if you're a good listener, then use that. But yeah, I'm just thinking of like, acts of service is like one slice, but then there could also be like, going over there and like hugging them, because I know I got, I was so hug deprived and just wanted to be held. And wasn't it really? What are the other love languages? Oh yeah, gifts…

ALY: It could be to like, you know, remembering important dates and making sure that they like, have, you know, something from someone.

HANNAH: Yeah, no, that makes sense. Yeah.

ALY: Yeah, but you're right. I think that that's a great lens to use, is those love languages. There’s acts of service, gifts, quality time, physical touch.

HANNAH: Oh, and words of affirmation.

ALY: There you go, yeah.

HANNAH: Lately, I've been doing my best to support people virtually who are grieving. And I kind of feel, I know this isn't probably true, but I feel like the only thing I can offer them is words. So I've been texting them, you know, what everyone's saying, I just want you to know I love you. And I'm so sorry. I think because that's what I, I'm trying to base it on what I learned. And like, that is all I really wanted to hear was I love you and I'm sorry.

Like all the platitudes, I'm like, you know. Yeah. So, but yeah, I guess like, if it's virtual, I know you can probably, you can send gifts in the mail. I did send them a book on grief, but—

ALY: You can send them fuzzy blankets, yeah. Like, so another thing, I say that, you know, the truth about grief is that you can't fix it, right?

HANNAH: Yeah.

ALY: We know this. It's just something that we kind of learn to live with. But where we do have agency as grief supporters is making people's lives easier and more comfortable. So you can also use that lens when supporting someone. And comfort can be a physical thing. So we talk about, you know, socks, blankets, weighted blankets, heated blankets.

I'm a big fan of weighted blankets. But it can also be like that emotional comfort too, right? Which is those, you know, words of affirmation really like validating how horrible it is that this person in their life died.

Like if that's what they want to hear, like that's great. Saying if they want to hear like, I love you and I'm sorry, like in your case, like, give that to them. That if that's providing them comfort, talk about the person.

You know, we started our conversation with that, like talking about this person who was really important to them, who isn't around anymore, like help keep their memory alive. Like that's a huge gift. And then the easy part is, yeah, that maybe more so those like acts of service, you know, helping them with cleaning, grocery shopping, if they have kids, helping them with their kids or their animals, or what have, paperwork, all that stuff.

So I was like actively bereaved during COVID. And the majority of the support that I received was virtual. And, you know, I don't really know a different way. And I still had like the okayest experience somebody probably could, right? Especially with our generation. I actually don't know. I shouldn't say our generation. You're obviously younger than me. But like young people who like know how to use the internet, right?

And FaceTime and texting and all that. There are still many, many like bereavement services that are virtual because of what COVID forced us all to do. And sometimes sometimes it's easier for someone to talk on the phone than being in a confined space with such really big feelings. Right? It might be like you're both walking, but you're talking on the phone instead of doing that walk together. Like sometimes it's easier to stand side by side than like facing each other because the emotions are too big.

I find that I find that personally, like I would much rather talk on the phone about what's going on. I find that I clam up or like I get uncomfortable when other people get uncomfortable. So I'd rather do it on the phone where I can't see them.

HANNAH: No, that's a good point. Yeah. And I love that idea of side to side rather than face to face. That that's an option.

ALY: Because we all grieve differently, right? Like our brains work differently. Like grief is a different experience for different people. And, you know, there are people who really lean into their feelings being seen and witnessed and validated. And there's nothing wrong with that. But there are other people and I think we often forget about them.

There are more of like an instrumental griever who just want to hear that like, this is causing so many problems in my life and I don't want you to fix any of them. I just want you to want to tell you about all the problems for me. Like if you and I’ve had to teach a number of people in my life about this, but I’m like, I’m going to throw all my problems at you and I just want you to catch them.

Like that's all you have to do. But it's much easier to like if they're uncomfortable, at least when you're introducing them to like this need, it's easier to do it without looking at them.

HANNAH: Right. No, that makes sense. And I guess like, yeah, don't offer to fix the problem unless it's, I need wood chopped for my furnace. I can fix that! I can chop the wood!

ALY: I mean, I offered up the wood chopping to a number of people who are asking how they could help. And I'm like, do this. And for, you know, it was something tangible. And I think it gave people an outlet as well in those early days. But yeah, that's another thing when it comes to grief support. Like if you are walking alongside someone who is grieving, like you will notice a number of problems that you think might be easy to solve.

And the best thing that you can do is ask permission before you offer any solutions to those problems. Because the worst thing is, you know, expressing something that you are frustrated with and nobody validating the frustration and just jumping straight to fixing the problem. That removes the empowerment and the agency and the respect for that person's grief experience.

HANNAH: Yeah, that explains why it can be so upsetting. When someone tries to jump in to fix it, that yet undermines your agency.

ALY: Yeah, so it's completely, it's completely fine to ask permission, but just ask permission first. Yeah. Hey, do you want me to listen or do you want me to problem solve? Like, it's as easy as that. And listening is probably the harder one to do.

HANNAH: You mentioned like how to recover when you make a mistake. If you want to talk a little bit about that, sounds interesting.

ALY: Absolutely, yes. So I think one thing that keeps people from offering the kind of support that a bereaved person needs is that they're afraid of doing it wrong. They're afraid of getting close and making a mistake. And what I teach in the book is that it is inevitable that you are going to make mistakes. If you are close enough, like it's guaranteed to happen. You're going to say something that you regret.

You're going to do something that you regret. But mistakes can be recovered from. And in fact, when you make a mistake and you recover properly from it, you actually strengthen your relationship. And I use this great example. My will was a gorgeous man, very dedicated to the gym. And his whole mindset was, you don't, and I mean, I guess this is science.

I shouldn't say that it's his science. But you go to the gym to break down your muscles, right? And then it's actually the recovery process that rebuilds them and makes them stronger. So if you think of in the context of grief support, like going in to use Brené Brown's language, like going in to the arena, being vulnerable, making the mistake, but then taking the steps to recover from it is going to strengthen the relationship between you and this person that you care about. And so the way I teach recovery is that you recognize that you made the mistake, like acknowledge it because it might just like want to like spin around in your head and you can ruminate on it. Or like just get off of that train as fast as you can.

And I like really advocate for using an affirmation to do that. So in the book, I teach something to the effect of like, I make mistakes because I care. Yeah, I make mistakes because I love this person. Because that's the truth, right? You're there because you love them and you want to help. Second step is you circle back to the person as soon as possible.

Don't let it spin around in your head and ruminate on it. Like get back to them as soon as you can and being like, hey, I'm just going over what I said in that conversation, and I'm feeling like it maybe it wasn't the right thing to say, like, do you feel the same way? Like check in with them, like, because maybe they felt it too. Maybe they didn't at all, right? Like maybe they didn't even notice. And so check in with them.

If they do say, yeah, it's like, yeah, that kind of hurt my feelings, or yeah, that that didn't feel great when you said that thing or that you did that thing, then you just apologize for it. Like, it's really as simple as that. There's actually five apology languages to based on the same science as the five languages of love.

But there are ways to make an effective apology to someone. See, you apologize and do better next time. Like, literally, like, it's as simple as that to like recover from mistakes. And I'd say like, if you don't make mistakes in grief support, like, then you're actually doing it wrong. That is the only way to get it wrong. If you are making mistakes, you're doing it right because you are willing to be courageous enough to like be next to this person doing this job that is really like, it takes a lot of energy and presence, and it is a learned skill for every person, right?

Like, as we said before, like, you can't use anything really that you've learned from other people because everybody's experience is so unique. So it takes courage and vulnerability and presence and, you know, making mistakes to really learn how to do this job well for this person that you care about. So make the mistakes and know that you can recover from them.

HANNAH: I feel like fear of doing it wrong is like 99.9% of the time, that's the reason people don't say anything. So like, that could just solve that problem, you know.

ALY: 100%. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's going to take some trial and error. And that's unfortunately like the burden of being human. Like, everything is one big experiment, and we're not going to know how to do it right, unless we do it wrong first.

HANNAH: I would also love to chat about secondary losses, because I do feel like that is oftentimes just, one, just like not really talked about or maybe not really understood. And I also feel like it's extremely expansive, because I was thinking about it today, and it's like secondary losses for yourself, secondary losses for your relationship, for both of you, secondary losses for them. And it's like endless, because it's for the rest of your life, and for the rest of what could have been their life. So it's like an infinite list, I feel like.

ALY: Yes, you're completely right. So like the concept of a secondary loss is any loss, or change really, that happens because of that primary loss. So in the context of death, the primary loss is the death of a person. But then there is a whole slew of things that change, because that one person died. And those are all the secondary losses. So those can be tangible things, like their physical presence is a loss. The loss of income in a family unit, because they died. The loss of, if you're a roommate, like not having them down the hall is a loss. You used to drive to work together.

There's a loss of that partnership and that activity. There's loss if you shared the same taste in music and you talked about it. That's a loss. And then there's losses that happen, like yeah, as we age and we grow, like things that they're missing out on, right? Or I had a good cry in the car last week because like I feel like I'm really like hitting my stride in like again, like after Will's death, like I felt like it definitely knocked me down for a while. And I like had a moment where I'm like, wow, like my life is like pretty good right now.

But like that is also a loss, right? Because he would absolutely appreciate how well I am doing right now. Like, and I wish that he was here to see it. That's a loss. So it's kind of like this, you know, I explained in the book, it's kind of like an earthquake. So that first, like the big, you know, shattering of everything is that person's death.

But earthquakes, earthquakes come with like aftershocks, right? And then there's like exploring the rubble of like what can be saved and what can't, right? So it's kind of this constant exploration and excavation of a life that cannot be because this one person died.

But you could also use the image of like a spiral because kind of like every year, you're going around the sun again and you're like experiencing all these important dates and reflecting on what it felt like last year and the year before and how much time has passed. Like, yeah, the losses, secondary losses are endless. And the challenging thing about secondary losses is that they don't get the recognition that the primary loss has.

So when a person dies, we have the memorials, right? We either like celebration of life or a funeral or, you know, whatever sort of activity feels the best to commemorate them. But after that, every other loss that we face doesn't get the same recognition, which can be hard, right?

Like you're walking through life being like, oh, there's one, there's one, there's one, there's one. And they kind of like compound on each other, which is a lot. And it explains why, you know, grief is so unique to everyone and why it lasts way longer than people imagine who haven't experienced it, right?

Like for me, especially like the closer that person that died is to your web of life, I'd say, like, the more losses will be felt. So like before Will's death, everyone in my life who died was old. And I didn't have like a really significant relationship with them.

But like losing someone who was the person who I was going to spend the rest of my life with, who was active and present in everything I did in my life. Like waking up and brushing my teeth to eating meals together to, you know, all the activities that we shared together, like we shared a car and commuted together, like he was integral to the shape of my life. So losing that one person, just like the losses continue to be still felt.

And grief itself is like, a lot of people have an assumption that it's a feeling. I describe it as more of an energy that can be expressed as any kind of feeling. But that, yeah, it just gets compounded on each other.

So it's good to know because I think people think that, oh, the person died so many years ago, why am I still feeling this way? There's a number of factors, right? Like you're still feeling the effects of that loss probably, right?

There's still losses that are occurring in your life because that person is not here. And then on top of that, we can't fix it, right? We just carry it and we build the muscle to carry it.

HANNAH: It's huge. And I know a friend of mine said this once, and he meant it as like really dark humor, like where it's totally true. And it's also just like, just sort of a way to maybe explain the tiny secondary losses that can feel really deeply, which is grief is when you want to text someone a funny meme, but you can't. And it sounds small, but it's actually like, oh no, like, oh, I just want to text you this picture so bad, you know?

ALY: Yeah, like there's grief in like having to change the pronouns for things, right? Like, it's no longer our car, it's my car because you're dead.

HANNAH: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

ALY: Like it's in everything.

HANNAH: Yeah, everything.

ALY: Everything. Yeah.

HANNAH: It's and I feel like that can also make it feel, I don't know, I feel like in my experience, like those really small secondary losses many years later, feel much more lonely because they're hard to, first of all, they're invisible. Other people don't know, maybe probably, that these little aftershocks are happening, or what the specific ones are. And you just kind of have to be like, just sit in it yourself, I feel like.

ALY: I mean, yes and no. I mean, if you follow the, if you read my book and you follow the steps, like the, my goal is that the people that are surrounding that grieving person, like, can share that weight, right? Like I have a great group of friends now where, like, it'll be four years since we'll die to November.

And if something, you know, touches me, if I experience like, oh, there, there's another secondary loss. Like I have someone that I can tell. Oh, and yeah, sharing that with someone, not having to like carry the weight of it by myself is, is huge.

And it makes it easier to carry. Yeah. Like literally like last Friday, when I had that great moment and I was like, I wish you could see me now. Like there was like, I like, it was a Friday night. So I was like, I wish we could just do like a Friday night, like we did in 2019. And we couldn't obviously because he's dead.

But I could text a friend and be like, hey, I'm having a moment. I wish I could TGIF like I used to TGIF in 2019. And they're like, yeah, I get it. But that's the value of like remaining next to someone for the long haul of grief. Right? If you haven't had people who are willing to stay close and connected and willing to understand and learn about your unique experience of grief, that's not something that everybody has four years down the road.

That's why people have so many misconceptions about grief. That's like that is the outcome of what culturally we teach as grief support, right? Like if you're only there for the first two weeks, then after the funeral, you're like, yep, I'm done, cool. It makes it a lot harder for the person down the road. That's when they end up in the Facebook groups, bitching about being forgotten and misunderstood because they are. Yeah.

HANNAH: I just hope that for everyone, I hope that everyone has someone to text or call whenever they have a little secondary loss. And not that they're little, but like sometimes they can feel little, but they're huge.

Like the texting thing, I'm just like, I just want to text her a picture of this dog, you know, like, or something. Or, oh man, she would have thought that was so funny. She would have been the first person I told.

ALY: You're not going to believe the storyline in this TV show. This character's back. Personally, like, I think it's important to have an outlet for those. So if, you know, somebody's listening to this and they don't, like, it's okay to, like, capture them in a journal or something, too, or, like, text them into the abyss. I think it helps to not have to carry them and just have a place to store them instead of inside your body.

HANNAH: And like having a name for it and recognizing it instead of just kind of vaguely be feeling sad, but maybe not, or feeling the energy, but maybe not knowing why or, like, where it came from. Because, yeah, it's so true that I feel like when things are going well, that can be a trigger for grief because of exactly what you said. And then if people don't have a word for that, they might be like, why am I so sad?

Things are going well, like, and then beat themself up for it or something. I'm just, yeah, thinking maybe about my experiences too, so.

ALY: Yeah, there can be grief in happiness. There can be grief in joy. I think, like, I'm only really starting to understand this, but, you know, I, they say that, like, once you experience grief, you know, the highs are higher and the lows are lower.

Um, and I've, I've felt the lower lows, but only now am I venturing into the higher highs. And in those moments, like, I am acutely aware of what it took to feel this good. And there's a loss in that too, right?

Like, there's a loss of, like, the ignorance of, like, being naive and not knowing what it is like to live with grief. And a bit of jealousy, too, about, like, being a younger person who has had a life-shattering loss and had to, you know, really work very hard to figure out what a future looks like that makes me want to stick around.

HANNAH: I like what you said about how, too, about how, like, grief can be there in moments of extreme joy and happiness. Because I'm just thinking about, yeah, like, the complexity. It's funny, because it's like in the movie Inside Out, that's what the whole movie is about.

ALY: Yes, yes, yes, great movie.

HANNAH: Such a good movie. But that's exactly what it is. It's like, yeah, that just thinking about, like, you know, moments of intense joy after the experience and how they were, I would say, almost always tinged with that blue, the sadness of, like, whether it was like, she could have been here laughing with me or just having it be a reminder of somehow, like, what had happened. Yeah, it's a lot more blue and yellow mixed together.

ALY: Yes, it is. Yes, it is. We've kind of oscillated in this conversation between, like, the immediacy after someone dies and then kind of the long haul.

HANNAH: Right.

ALY: But going back to the conversation about, you know, mistakes, there's no wrong time to show up for someone. So if it means that, you know, this conversation has brought up, like, oh, maybe there's something I should have done that I didn't, it's okay to circle back and say, hey, you know, sorry, I haven't been there or, you know, I feel like I should have been there and I wasn't. And like have that conversation with a person because there's still time.

There's still time to support them. There's still time to demonstrate, you know, how much you mean to them or how much they mean to you. And you can still, you know, be supportive of them and give them what it is they need at this moment in time after someone in their life has died.

HANNAH: I love that. And I feel like that's true, too, with just even with connecting with someone. Like, I feel like there's shame around like, I haven't talked to them in 20 years.

It's shameful if I reach out now. So I'll just keep not reaching out and then 30 years, you know, more years past. But yeah, it's like, I like the idea of like, it's never too late to reach out.

ALY: Yeah.